dave
Sophomore Member
Posts: 112
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Post by dave on Apr 5, 2017 12:25:11 GMT -6
I think the worst case scenario for USD is for the MVC to poach the XDSU schools. Even though the MVC would be better off taking them, I think they add Valpo, Belmont, or Oakland instead. If offered, I'm not sure which way the XDSU schools would go. I'm not sure how much they value the SLT in Sioux Falls, and playing the Dakota Schools vs upgrading conferences in BB. My gut says they would go. Adding tiny private schools will further water down the MVC, and the Summit will only continue to get stronger and more regionally cohesive with the addition of UND. Over time I think UNI might change their tune about the Summit and see it as a legitimate option. They don't right now. I think that this is a likely scenario, and the best-case for USD. I don't know if they would go. Yes, the Valley would be a step up in prestige but not a huge step up, but it is a step up in costs. The Valley is a multi-bid league some years but is that worth the big increase in costs that comes with operating a program at that level? What is your ROI going to be? Would you be better off staying in what is a stable Summit and operating your program at the lower costs in this league? www.argusleader.com/story/sports/college/south-dakota-state-university/2017/03/29/q-justin-sell-state-sdsu-athletics/99764622/The above link is a Q&A with AD Justin Sell, my take is we are content being in the Summit League and are willing to stay there for a while. When SDSU made the transition to DI our administration told us to be patient this is a 20 year process and we are about 2/3's of the way through that process you guys are at the half way point. IMHO when you look at the profiles of both schools athletic departments we are about where we need to be in regards to that timeline, we've both done major facility improvements and have a couple of projects left that will be completed in probably the next 5 to 7 years. Both schools have substantially raised their athletic budgets and have reached the 300K level in head coaching salaries, but we both have work to do with assistant coaches and minor sports coaches salaries, we're getting to MVC levels. IMHO a conference move isn't necessary at this point, the Summit will serve us well for a while, but we need to keep an eye on the football situation if the P 5 and G 5 have a formal split we don't want to be in tier 3 football. I hope the goal of our administrations is to have football and all the other sports in the same conference, and if the other MVFC members have the same goals we should be prepared to make that move. I also hope the four Dakota schools stick together.
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Post by Yote 53 on Apr 5, 2017 12:38:10 GMT -6
I don't know if they would go. Yes, the Valley would be a step up in prestige but not a huge step up, but it is a step up in costs. The Valley is a multi-bid league some years but is that worth the big increase in costs that comes with operating a program at that level? What is your ROI going to be? Would you be better off staying in what is a stable Summit and operating your program at the lower costs in this league? Not sure that is true in Creighton and Wichita State's absence. 2006 was the last time they had two teams in the tournament that weren't Creighton/Wichita. If 25-6 Illinois State couldn't get an at-large bid then I think the MVC is looking like they'll be a one-bid league nearly every year. If you are going to be in a one bid league then you would be best served to be in a one bid league that is cost controlled and growing at a manageable pace. Why join a one bid league where you are instantly out-resourced? Fall behind in the W-L column and your fan base erodes making the climb back that much harder. Better off to stay in the one bid league that is growing at the same rate you are. A majority of the Summit programs are moving along at the same pace at the same time, growing together. The conference is on a sustainable upward trajectory right now. No need for any school to mess with that.
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Post by Coyote Fan on Apr 5, 2017 16:42:32 GMT -6
Sounds like a great idea to the Summit football playing schools but I'm sure it sounds horrible to the Valley football playing schools. Illinois State Southern Illinois Northern Iowa Missouri State Indiana State Those schools would view the proposed conference as a demotion, and it would be a demotion for them in basketball. The amount of money and resources Valley schools put into basketball far outpaces what Summit schools put in. Valley bottom feeder Drake almost stole our coach by offering him almost double what he made at USD. Freaking Drake. UNI pays their head coach an average salary of $900,000 per year. Summit schools have a long way to go before we get to that level of funding. The only way that conference happens is if chaos begins to reign and realignment goes crazy. UNI and a few others start really feeling the budget crunch and look to scale back their basketball expenditures while the Summit increases theirs and we meet somewhere in the middle. I could make a case that it would be a fantastic idea for Valley schools to do this as it would save them money and they would probably still have the same amount of access to the NCAA Tournament as that proposed conference would be a 2-3 bid conference, right where the Valley is today, but much cheaper funding for the AD. UNI would push to go to the MAC before any of that happened. No idea why as their football program is trending down and they can't afford to keep up with the Dakota schools and the resources we are putting into football. But that's what they think over there, that they are superior. Those above mentioned 5 schools are not able to afford to compare what the reality is now vs what it used to be. Creighton and Wichita are gone and they have to move on. Maybe UNI doesn't want to settle for a conference with the Dakota schools involved but for them to avoid that they may have to try to move somewhere like the Mid American Conference but geographically I am not so sure they fit in well enough with that conference. So Wichita is gone and there are rumors that Omaha and Denver could be replacements or possible Valpo or Belmont or other Horizon type programs. If you are a Valley football school you have to ask yourself where you priorities are. I would think the above mentioned 5 would rather align themselves with schools that have football rather than more basketball only schools that aren't any better then the Summit schools that already have football. So for the big 5 mentioned above they can ask themselves this question? Which schools would you rather align with? UND NDSU SDSU USD W Illinois That would form a nice tidy conference with like schools and don't say academics isn't a factor because last I knew the president's have just a tiny little input as well. Or those schools can align with a hodgepodge of the following schools. Omaha Denver Oral Roberts Fort Wayne IUPUI Loyola-Chicago Drake Bradley Evansville IPFW IUPUI Belmont Valpo and on and on. Take your pick amongst those schools and it doesn't equal an all sports conference better than the Dakota's and Western Illinois. It is not just all about what those schools can do right now, but what the future looks like and the trajectory of the schools that they would want to join with. If it was about just right now then USD is the best basketball school this year in the Summit, has a brand spanking new arena and good academics. They haven't been the best overall basketball school until this year but ooops look how things change. Do you think that a school like Northern Iowa is going to want Denver and Omaha added ahead of the Dakota schools or even Valpo and Belmont. Denver wouldn't exactly be a good fit geographically into the Valley. The best stability and long term outlook would be the current football Valley schools with the current football Summit Schools.
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Post by Coyote Fan on Apr 5, 2017 16:53:24 GMT -6
I don't know if they would go. Yes, the Valley would be a step up in prestige but not a huge step up, but it is a step up in costs. The Valley is a multi-bid league some years but is that worth the big increase in costs that comes with operating a program at that level? What is your ROI going to be? Would you be better off staying in what is a stable Summit and operating your program at the lower costs in this league? www.argusleader.com/story/sports/college/south-dakota-state-university/2017/03/29/q-justin-sell-state-sdsu-athletics/99764622/The above link is a Q&A with AD Justin Sell, my take is we are content being in the Summit League and are willing to stay there for a while. When SDSU made the transition to DI our administration told us to be patient this is a 20 year process and we are about 2/3's of the way through that process you guys are at the half way point. IMHO when you look at the profiles of both schools athletic departments we are about where we need to be in regards to that timeline, we've both done major facility improvements and have a couple of projects left that will be completed in probably the next 5 to 7 years. Both schools have substantially raised their athletic budgets and have reached the 300K level in head coaching salaries, but we both have work to do with assistant coaches and minor sports coaches salaries, we're getting to MVC levels. IMHO a conference move isn't necessary at this point, the Summit will serve us well for a while, but we need to keep an eye on the football situation if the P 5 and G 5 have a formal split we don't want to be in tier 3 football. I hope the goal of our administrations is to have football and all the other sports in the same conference, and if the other MVFC members have the same goals we should be prepared to make that move. I also hope the four Dakota schools stick together. Of course the Jacks are content where they are at and why wouldn't they be getting half their ticket punched to the big dance just by being in Sioux Falls for the tourney. The only other school that really would value the location of the Summit tourney would be USD. UND and NDSU are not going to hold off on what is best for them because of the tourney, but SDSU is an entirely different matter. The problem with Jacks fans is that they don't realize that half the conference is likely less then thrilled with the post season tourney arrangement and if enough schools don't like it they will be the ones to exit the conference at the first legit opportunity. If either Omaha and Denver leave or Fort Wayne and IUPUI leave or god forbid all 4 then the Summit is on life support. If I am a fan of Denver, IUPUI, IPFW and maybe even Western Illinois I would want out of the Summit ASAP. If the Summit does lose two the options are starting to run out for new members. The next best option would be to hope St. Cloud and Minnesota State want to move up and then a name change to the North Central Conference would follow. Otherwise if not no other team that is a possibility seems very likely at all and I don't think many would be excited if UMKC wanted back. I really don't understand why Douple has not made Summit expansion a higher priority then what he has recently.
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Post by GoYotes on Apr 5, 2017 16:57:29 GMT -6
All current Summit League members have one million good reasons to stay in the Summit
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Post by Coyote Fan on Apr 5, 2017 16:59:43 GMT -6
Not sure that is true in Creighton and Wichita State's absence. 2006 was the last time they had two teams in the tournament that weren't Creighton/Wichita. If 25-6 Illinois State couldn't get an at-large bid then I think the MVC is looking like they'll be a one-bid league nearly every year. If you are going to be in a one bid league then you would be best served to be in a one bid league that is cost controlled and growing at a manageable pace. Why join a one bid league where you are instantly out-resourced? Fall behind in the W-L column and your fan base erodes making the climb back that much harder. Better off to stay in the one bid league that is growing at the same rate you are. A majority of the Summit programs are moving along at the same pace at the same time, growing together. The conference is on a sustainable upward trajectory right now. No need for any school to mess with that. That is assuming that everyone wants to stay in the Summit and one loss could lead to multiple losses. I don't think the Summit is quite growing together at an equal rate. The Dakota schools are growing and maybe Omaha but right now WIU, IUPUI and Fort Wayne don't seem as committed to growing as the Dak's are. I consider a conference with the Dakota's with the other football playing Valley schools as the most desirable conference going forward and that is for all involved. USD is now more similar to Missouri State or UNI then they are to the Indiana Summit schools. Bob Nielson just made a lateral conference move because he saw the writing on the wall and also saw the commitment USD is making to athletics. It's not common for a coach to do the type of move that Nielson did.
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Post by Coyote Fan on Apr 5, 2017 20:22:57 GMT -6
After some thought I think the Missouri Valley Conference will not touch any of the Summit teams to keep stability in both leagues to keep the football conference going strong. That is unless there is a major conference realignment involving the Summit football schools.
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Post by usdtator on Apr 5, 2017 21:32:24 GMT -6
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Post by usdtator on Apr 5, 2017 21:38:54 GMT -6
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Post by elcoyote on Apr 5, 2017 22:59:58 GMT -6
The thing that worries me about Western Illinois is their finances, not just for athletics, but the school as a whole and how viable their future is on this level. They have a 75 page thread on their message board about funding higher education, or lack of, in the state of Illinois and, quite frankly, it sounds pretty dire. It's no wonder Nielson and his staff left. If any WIU people happen to stumble across this please fell free to enlighten us about your circumstances now and in the future.
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Post by kiyoat on Apr 6, 2017 8:57:20 GMT -6
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Post by jacksfan29 on Apr 6, 2017 10:00:00 GMT -6
www.argusleader.com/story/sports/college/south-dakota-state-university/2017/03/29/q-justin-sell-state-sdsu-athletics/99764622/The above link is a Q&A with AD Justin Sell, my take is we are content being in the Summit League and are willing to stay there for a while. When SDSU made the transition to DI our administration told us to be patient this is a 20 year process and we are about 2/3's of the way through that process you guys are at the half way point. IMHO when you look at the profiles of both schools athletic departments we are about where we need to be in regards to that timeline, we've both done major facility improvements and have a couple of projects left that will be completed in probably the next 5 to 7 years. Both schools have substantially raised their athletic budgets and have reached the 300K level in head coaching salaries, but we both have work to do with assistant coaches and minor sports coaches salaries, we're getting to MVC levels. IMHO a conference move isn't necessary at this point, the Summit will serve us well for a while, but we need to keep an eye on the football situation if the P 5 and G 5 have a formal split we don't want to be in tier 3 football. I hope the goal of our administrations is to have football and all the other sports in the same conference, and if the other MVFC members have the same goals we should be prepared to make that move. I also hope the four Dakota schools stick together. Of course the Jacks are content where they are at and why wouldn't they be getting half their ticket punched to the big dance just by being in Sioux Falls for the tourney. The only other school that really would value the location of the Summit tourney would be USD. UND and NDSU are not going to hold off on what is best for them because of the tourney, but SDSU is an entirely different matter. The problem with Jacks fans is that they don't realize that half the conference is likely less then thrilled with the post season tourney arrangement and if enough schools don't like it they will be the ones to exit the conference at the first legit opportunity. If either Omaha and Denver leave or Fort Wayne and IUPUI leave or god forbid all 4 then the Summit is on life support. If I am a fan of Denver, IUPUI, IPFW and maybe even Western Illinois I would want out of the Summit ASAP. If the Summit does lose two the options are starting to run out for new members. The next best option would be to hope St. Cloud and Minnesota State want to move up and then a name change to the North Central Conference would follow. Otherwise if not no other team that is a possibility seems very likely at all and I don't think many would be excited if UMKC wanted back. I really don't understand why Douple has not made Summit expansion a higher priority then what he has recently. SDSU will outgrow the Summit eventually, as will NDSU. If you actually read Sell's interview you will find that our athletic budget increased by $4 million year over year, 2016 v 2017. The budget continues to grow as ticket sales increase and corporate sponsorships increase along with private fundraising. We are down to 39% of our budget being subsidized. What percent is the USD subsidy? SDSU will not stay in the Summit just for the conference tournament. Plus, as Sell said so nicely. If the other schools (see USD) don't like to see that many SDSU fans in Sioux Falls, get off your ass and buy tickets. I actually don't care if the four Dakota schools stay together. I care if SDSU and NDSU stay together and I expect we will. The rest of your rants? None of the four Dakota schools are going to get looked at by the MVC this time around. If any do, it would be SDSU and NDSU alone. You really need to sit back and relax. The transition to being a quality D1 school is a long one. SDSU and NDSU are ahead of USD and UND because we started earlier, partnered and made a strong commitment from day one to be the best, wherever we are. USD seem to have finally gotten its act together, but it has taken a while. UND the same. In 5 years the local D1 landscape will likely look much different then today. We could be with the MVFC, MVC schools in an all sports conference or we could be in a conference with other, large state schools (think Montana, NMSU and UNC plus two or three MVFC schools). I highly doubt that in 5 years the four Dakota schools will be in the Summit, as the Summit looks today. There just is not enough commitment to quality and not enough schools committed to spending what it takes to be the best. We will leave those schools behind. It is only a matter of time.
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Post by gopheryote on Apr 6, 2017 10:07:26 GMT -6
It would seem that the wise thing to do would wait until the P5/G5 football issue resolves itself before conference hopping starts again. BUT, these things are often big-ego driven, not rational.
I think the egos at the xDSU's are quite inflated (specifically the big $ donors, who are well known). If there is an offer from MVC, I think both jump so they can rub elbows with perceived big boys, and breathe new life into the 'UxD's are beneath us' narrative. (I don't think it matters that the actual big boys aren't at that party anymore.) Which would be lousy/unfortunate for the fans who don't carry the big egos or big wallets.
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Post by kiyoat on Apr 6, 2017 12:50:35 GMT -6
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Post by yoteforever on Apr 6, 2017 15:35:41 GMT -6
Of course the Jacks are content where they are at and why wouldn't they be getting half their ticket punched to the big dance just by being in Sioux Falls for the tourney. The only other school that really would value the location of the Summit tourney would be USD. UND and NDSU are not going to hold off on what is best for them because of the tourney, but SDSU is an entirely different matter. The problem with Jacks fans is that they don't realize that half the conference is likely less then thrilled with the post season tourney arrangement and if enough schools don't like it they will be the ones to exit the conference at the first legit opportunity. If either Omaha and Denver leave or Fort Wayne and IUPUI leave or god forbid all 4 then the Summit is on life support. If I am a fan of Denver, IUPUI, IPFW and maybe even Western Illinois I would want out of the Summit ASAP. If the Summit does lose two the options are starting to run out for new members. The next best option would be to hope St. Cloud and Minnesota State want to move up and then a name change to the North Central Conference would follow. Otherwise if not no other team that is a possibility seems very likely at all and I don't think many would be excited if UMKC wanted back. I really don't understand why Douple has not made Summit expansion a higher priority then what he has recently. SDSU will outgrow the Summit eventually, as will NDSU. If you actually read Sell's interview you will find that our athletic budget increased by $4 million year over year, 2016 v 2017. The budget continues to grow as ticket sales increase and corporate sponsorships increase along with private fundraising. We are down to 39% of our budget being subsidized. What percent is the USD subsidy? SDSU will not stay in the Summit just for the conference tournament. Plus, as Sell said so nicely. If the other schools (see USD) don't like to see that many SDSU fans in Sioux Falls, get off your ass and buy tickets. I actually don't care if the four Dakota schools stay together. I care if SDSU and NDSU stay together and I expect we will. The rest of your rants? None of the four Dakota schools are going to get looked at by the MVC this time around. If any do, it would be SDSU and NDSU alone. You really need to sit back and relax. The transition to being a quality D1 school is a long one. SDSU and NDSU are ahead of USD and UND because we started earlier, partnered and made a strong commitment from day one to be the best, wherever we are. USD seem to have finally gotten its act together, but it has taken a while. UND the same. In 5 years the local D1 landscape will likely look much different then today. We could be with the MVFC, MVC schools in an all sports conference or we could be in a conference with other, large state schools (think Montana, NMSU and UNC plus two or three MVFC schools). I highly doubt that in 5 years the four Dakota schools will be in the Summit, as the Summit looks today. There just is not enough commitment to quality and not enough schools committed to spending what it takes to be the best. We will leave those schools behind. It is only a matter of time. I want to start by saying I think all of this whining about tickets for The Summit is ridiculous. I have cautioned USD fans to get off their butts and support the Coyotes and get on this bandwagon for a long time. In my opinion, you can't not show up for games in Vermillion but complain when the games are in Sioux Falls. Get behind USD in all sports, get used to going to games, and it will fix itself. I'm sick of hearing about SDSU going first, but they did, and up till now have enjoyed the fruits of it. Stop whining about it, it makes us look bad. Jacksfan29, you make me laugh. You say you don't care about if the MVC, or by other conference for that matter takes all four Dakota schools, all you care about is SDSU goes with NDSU. I've got news for you...SDSU is not a brand. Like it or not, NDSU football is a brand, but you AREN'T. You went D1 when they did...end of conversation. You are the one that makes it sound like SDSU will go wherever NDSU goes. Guess what? NDSU does NOT need SDSU to move up. They have the brand, the population, and did have the money till now. But that may be drying up with the oil drop. Get over yourself. The fact of the matter is this years men's basketball team wasn't winning the first 2/3 rd of the season, and attendance was way down. Your arena, by comparison to ours and NDSU and UND sucks. You'll spend millions on it renovating it, but it will still suck. Just not as much as it does now. If your football team goes .500 ticket sales will plummet, because just like USD, you only get good crowds when you win. Try a home game on pheasant season opener. There will be more dead ringnecks than fans in the new stadium. And lastly, please don't go holier than now on your 39% subsidy point. Anyone in business knows what's happened to your public funding side of your jump into D1. Get over yourself...if NDSU moves on to a bigger league, and they maybe could, they sure as hell don't need you. The best opportunity for the Dakota schools is if the Missouri Valley stood to the plate and made it an all sports conference. But be careful what you ask for. Just don't act like all these leagues are just chomping at the bit to invite you. You are a mere pimple on their butt. You bring nothing to the table. No population, no airport...nothing. Unfortunately the same is true for USD. Lastly, you say SDSU won't stay in the Summit for the conference tournament? Do you realize or understand what the revenue stream for SDSU is from the tournament? The new conference would have to promise you the moon to entice you to jump. Your AD knows exact;y what that tournament means to sdsu's cofferes. It's a bunch. Stop pretending you're on equal footing with the Bison, because you're not even close.
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