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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 10, 2018 9:12:19 GMT -6
No, it's not Lakes. Lakes is allowed to post here under his own name, and is actually pretty tolerable.
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 10, 2018 9:24:33 GMT -6
This whole discussion is one big exhibition in why the Summit League isn't built to last. The lifeblood of the conference is somehow dependent on fielding baseball teams, and here is what we've got: ORU - Southern school that already left the conference once WIU - Concerns of the school going bankrupt UNO - Applied for Horizon and MVC membership recently IPFW - Lone EST member and ready to take first opportunity to join any other conference NDSU - Dependable member SDSU - Dependable member The only D1 member anyone can bring up as a possible addition is UMKC, which has no baseball. USD could maybe find a way to add baseball and offset the loss of one of those schools. UND is absolutely not going to add baseball so soon after cutting it due to budget concerns. So then we turn to developing the conference using the surrounding area. We go back to playing Augustana, Mankato, St Cloud, etc. But do any of them actually want to go D1? Do we really want to go back to just playing regional schools instead of striving for something bigger? We're going over $100 million in facility improvements at the D1 level soon. Did we do that to play in high school level facilities for every road game? If I could turn back the clock I would have just joined the Big Sky from the onset. I derided UND for so long but I think they had the right idea all along. I doubt they'd take us now, and the MVC/Horizon aren't interested, so where does that leave us? Adding a sport for short-term survival's sake or hoping inferior competition will associate with us. Great. You pretty much nailed it. The MVFC is great and I would not want to give it up, but the long term success of the entire athletic department would have been better served in the Big Sky. Thing is, by now both NDSU and SDSU would have likely moved over to the Big Sky with us and formed an eastern flank to that conference. Why? Because without USD (and now UND)the Summit would have imploded long ago. You think ORU would have come back, Denver would have joined, or UNO made a move up to D1 in a DOA Summit? The Summit would have died a few years ago if USD would have left for the Big Sky when we had the invite. A Big Sky East consisting of some of the following schools; USD, UND, SDSU, NDSU, UNC, Montana, Montana State, Idaho, Idaho State, and Eastern Washington. Sounds like a good conference/division to me. We should have had the patience and foresight to realize the Summit was going to implode and had confidence that SDSU and NDSU would have soon joined us over there. Because those two schools are the only reason we stayed in the Summit.
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 10, 2018 13:23:57 GMT -6
Talk about the Big Sky ignores the fact that UND could not survive financially playing in the Big Sky. The time to move to the Big Sky was back in the 1970s when the type of arraignment Yote 53 mentioned was certainly on the table. NDSU urged us all to move but nobody wanted anything to do with it and NDSU was not going to go it alone. That was a mistake SDSU and NDSU were not going to repeat when the finally told the NCC to get on board or get left behind.
You are also forgetting that NDSU and SDSU were rejected by the Big Sky which I believe led to the creation of the GWFC. Later, realizing the mistake and calling for all hands on board they invited a whole slew of schools including UND and USD. USD declined the invitation, possibly seeing UNDs future.
The answer for the Dakota Big 3 and Und is to build the Summit. I say anybody that wants to join should join including Augi and UMKC. How about St. Thomas an original member of the NCC? The idea that all of this is second rate and out of all the regional schools the Big 3 and Und "deserve" something better is certainly denegrating to the region. The key is to strengthen and grow our region not look elsewhere.
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 10, 2018 14:16:53 GMT -6
Disagree, the future should be in associating in a conference with peer institutions.
Things would have been different for UND if USD would have stuck with them. Travel would have been more manageable with 2 schools in the Dakotas in the BSC. People bring up travel as the killer, we had all been traveling much further in the old Great West, which spanned from California to New Jersey, to Texas.
I still contend that if USD would have stuck with the Big Sky that NDSU and SDSU would have moved there by now too. Yes, the BSC did not want them initially, but soon learned from that error and tried to secure USD and UND in order to outflank the MVC/MVFC and lure the XDSU's to the BSC. The strategy did not work because USD stayed in the Summit.
So now we get to grow and build the Summit. With what?
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 10, 2018 16:18:01 GMT -6
No, I don’t think things would have been different if USD had gone. Nobody cared about UND after they left. All UND proved is that most Big Sky schools don’t matter and they didn’t like 9:30 pm starts when on the road.
Augi would be a good start. I think the title 9 problems could be worked out strengthening baseball. Their other sports fit well. Take a look at your own schedule. Which games could Augi replace and what is the yearly savings in travel? Same for Mankato, UMD and UMKC. What is the yearly gain in fan interest? It would be a healthy competitive environment fun for fans and travel friendly.
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Post by Yotes on Jul 10, 2018 16:44:54 GMT -6
Most of Mankato's home basketball games drew less than a thousand fans, and that's with the very regional opponents and highly favorable scheduling. Their home game against their nearest opponent (CSP) drew less than 500. The road games at the other NSIC schools tell a similar story. There's no way those Minnesota schools go D1, especially since they've already got their one sport that matters at the top level. I think you can stop bringing them up as viable additions.
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Post by Yotes on Jul 10, 2018 16:49:50 GMT -6
No, I don’t think things would have been different if USD had gone. Nobody cared about UND after they left. All UND proved is that most Big Sky schools don’t matter and they didn’t like 9:30 pm starts when on the road. Which schools should we be associating with then? Montana, Montana State, Idaho, Eastern Washington, Northern Colorado, etc. seem like similar institutions to the Dakota schools. Denver, ORU, IPFW, Augustana (lol), not so much.
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 10, 2018 17:00:03 GMT -6
Most of Mankato's home basketball games drew less than a thousand fans, and that's with the very regional opponents and highly favorable scheduling. Their home game against their nearest opponent (CSP) drew less than 500. The road games at the other NSIC schools tell a similar story. There's no way those Minnesota schools go D1, especially since they've already got their one sport that matters at the top level. I think you can stop bringing them up as viable additions. One reason they may not draw is the opposition. Even for them the NSIC is getting a little small and fans are losing interest. Who is CSP? The best picks are UMD and Mankato. If Augi wants to go we have three additions. How many did you want? Of course Augi is the only active candidate right now and I’m not sure how serious they are? The Summit might finally be down to the schools that have no other choice. That can mean stability too.
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 10, 2018 17:05:35 GMT -6
No, I don’t think things would have been different if USD had gone. Nobody cared about UND after they left. All UND proved is that most Big Sky schools don’t matter and they didn’t like 9:30 pm starts when on the road. Which schools should we be associating with then? Montana, Montana State, Idaho, Eastern Washington, Northern Colorado, etc. seem like similar institutions to the Dakota schools. Denver, ORU, IPFW, Augustana (lol), not so much. I’m not sure about basketball but most of the schools are scheduling the BS in football. They are our peers as is the Summit and MVFC. If the MVFC were to go FCS the MAC would be our peers for scheduling as much or more than any other conference
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Post by Yotes on Jul 10, 2018 17:25:13 GMT -6
Most of Mankato's home basketball games drew less than a thousand fans, and that's with the very regional opponents and highly favorable scheduling. Their home game against their nearest opponent (CSP) drew less than 500. The road games at the other NSIC schools tell a similar story. There's no way those Minnesota schools go D1, especially since they've already got their one sport that matters at the top level. I think you can stop bringing them up as viable additions. One reason they may not draw is the opposition. Even for them the NSIC is getting a little small and fans are losing interest. Who is CSP? The best picks are UMD and Mankato. If Augi wants to go we have three additions. How many did you want? Of course Augi is the only active candidate right now and I’m not sure how serious they are? The Summit might finally be down to the schools that have no other choice. That can mean stability too. If Mankato and UMD can't draw even a thousand fans for their in-state rivals on Friday/Saturday nights, why would they ever start drawing fans against teams they've never heard of in the middle of the week? Which schools should we be associating with then? Montana, Montana State, Idaho, Eastern Washington, Northern Colorado, etc. seem like similar institutions to the Dakota schools. Denver, ORU, IPFW, Augustana (lol), not so much. I’m not sure about basketball but most of the schools are scheduling the BS in football. They are our peers as is the Summit and MVFC. If the MVFC were to go FCS the MAC would be our peers for scheduling as much or more than any other conference So, if the Big Sky is our peer, why do you thumb your nose at them and look towards programs that are absolutely not peers?
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 10, 2018 18:06:08 GMT -6
I don’t thumb my nose at the Big Sky. They just aren’t good conference partners. The best conferences have geographical proximity and ease of travel between members. We don’t have any of that with the Big Sky but they are peers and we do schedule them a lot. I don’t think it’s realistic to talk about any Big Sky conference merger unless the Summit does blow up.
I’m sure both Mankato and UMD would draw much better with The Dakota Big 3 and UND coming to town. I don’t know what they would do for the Dakotas though besides cut travel costs. NDSU doesn’t draw well anyway, it’s not like the Summit league is a bunch of big dogs. Somebody else pointed out what a bunch of losers the Summit really is. It may turn out the old NCC business plan was the best after all. Certainly Duluth, Mankato, St Cloud, Omaha, Fargo and Sioux Falls are all capable of supporting D1 basketball. Some are even talking about St Thomas.
Throw in the eastern schools that we have now and it’s a pretty good conference
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Post by lakesbison on Jul 13, 2018 13:08:07 GMT -6
Lol at und idiots who think that's me ^^^. They just aren't that bright up there. I'll flush twice for them today, the red river is flowing good.
If we are stuck with und (huge mistake... They'll be an anchor around NDSU and summit/mvfc)
I say 8 teams only & trim the fat.
NDSU USD NDSU ORU DENVER OMAHA und UNC or umkc
Let wiu ipfw walk. Narrow the territory and increase non conf rpi
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Post by elcoyote on Jul 13, 2018 16:02:17 GMT -6
Lol at und idiots who think that's me ^^^. They just aren't that bright up there. I'll flush twice for them today, the red river is flowing good. If we are stuck with und (huge mistake... They'll be an anchor around NDSU and summit/mvfc) I say 8 teams only & trim the fat. NDSU USD NDSU ORU DENVER OMAHA und UNC or umkc Let wiu ipfw walk. Narrow the territory and increase non conf rpi I get it, you hate UND, but that hyperbole is ridiculous. They will be a valuable member of the Summit League and I doubt anyone, except maybe a few NDSU fanatics would disagree. Eight team Summit, that would be just great. Wouldn't cause any problems with OOC scheduling at all, would it? You must like playing the NAIA schools in exhibitions.
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 13, 2018 19:32:54 GMT -6
Work out scheduling alliances with the Big Sky, Valley, Southland, etc. on a conference level. 8 could work. More NCAA money per school with less mouths to feed. OOC scheduling would be the key.
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Post by gopheryote on Jul 14, 2018 6:46:08 GMT -6
This is a must-read if you want an informed opinion on things like conference make-up/expansion (or athletic department finances): theathletic.com/428179/2018/07/12/mick-cronin-on-the-ncaas-pay-for-play-debate-and-a-way-he-thinks-it-could-be-solved/It is an interview with Mick Cronin (MBB coach at U of Cincinnati). Couple of points relevant to this thread: Meaning those non-revenue sports are forced into a conference that probably doesn’t make sense for them, simply because of the monetary decisions that go into football and basketball programs joining that conference.
MC: Exactly. The tail is wagging the dog. If there were any common sense and everyone sat down to figure it out – let’s not travel for no reason. Think of the interest level in soccer here with FC Cincinnati. Well, what if all 13 DI schools in Ohio were in the same conference for men’s and women’s soccer? Can you imagine all the parents who would get to see all the games, versus now? How many games can you afford to go see if you’re a soccer parent of a UC athlete? How are you going to get there? Even in our league. The model is broken, and it’s just become a constant cycle of how to survive, to keep the model going. …. And two: why do we all have to be in the same conference at UC? Why can’t football be in a certain conference, and everything else in another? Or football and basketball in Conference X, and everyone else in Conference Y? Let’s say football and basketball are supposed revenue sports, so they’re in Conference X. They can afford to travel, it makes sense because of TV, you need to have it because of pageantry or whatever. Why does everybody have to be in Conference X if it would be better to be in Conference Y? And it doesn’t mean Conference Y is a lesser conference. It may be a better conference for that sport. Take baseball – the American Athletic Conference is brutal in baseball. It’s a southern conference. It’s harder in baseball than it is in anything. ECU, South Florida – it’s an outdoor sport, they’re in the south. So I’m not saying these have to be lesser conferences. And people will say, That’s how it’s always been. Well, that’s the number one reason companies fail. Something has to be done outside the box of the way it’s always been. People view Cincinnati as a Top 20 basketball program. Well, we don’t have the money that the Power 5 Conferences have.
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