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Post by kiyoat on Aug 20, 2018 8:05:19 GMT -6
Here's a hypothetical to illustrate my point: Imagine that there is a small, division-III private school in the middle of nowhere in west Texas. They happen to have an elite-level women's volleyball team that has had sustained success for a while. Why can't that school move it's Volleyball program up to D-II or even D-I, and reap the benefits of the high competitiveness, fan interest, and program reputation-building that would follow? Maybe they can't afford to move the rest of their sports up. I guess I don't see the harm.
I think the fact that you see that in hockey is an exception specifically for that sport. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure a lot of failed "division moves" have been due to football expenses. Why do we need to force more failed programs when we can just allow universities to make decisions that make sense and benefit them?
I'm typically politically liberal on most things, but to me there are way too many unnecessary regulations in the NCAA. They need to clean house.
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Post by jacksfan29 on Aug 20, 2018 8:55:06 GMT -6
Northern Colorado didn't quit anyone because of travel. Where did you even get that? Northern Colorado "quit" the NCC because they chose to move up after an incredibly successful D2 run under Joe Glenn. UNC were the first NCC school to move up. Later, when SDSU and NDSU moved up, UNC joined the two former NCC mates, along with Cal Davis, Cal Poly, SUU and St. Mary's (who dropped FB prior to the league beginning play) to form the Great West Football League. UNC left after one season because they were invited to join the Big Sky. I suggest you take a peak at a map. I'm not saying UNC would, or should move to the Summit, but UNC's travel mileage in the Big Sky isn't that much different then it would be in the Summit/MVFC. NO matter what, you need to clean up your comments. UNC did not leave the NCC due to travel. Another myth that seems to have popped up from nowhere. The only viable Horizon candidate seems to be KC. Chicago is a weak sister and the Big Sky schools are not moving. The only possibility is NoCo but they quit us once because of travel. I began to doubt Augies ability to move with This post from Yote 53 over on bisonville. insurmountable hurdle?
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Post by gorabbits on Aug 20, 2018 13:05:36 GMT -6
Northern Colorado didn't quit anyone because of travel. Where did you even get that?\ [/quote] Jacksfan91, you are correct. in fact travel distances would be slightly less for them in the Summit/MVFC. UNC is actually about 100 miles closer to the geographical center of the Summit League than that of the Big Sky and very slightly closer to the geographical center of the MFVC than the center the Big Sky when UC Davis an Caly Poly are included. So clearly travel cost is not the reason for them to not consider the Summit/MVFC.
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 20, 2018 13:22:17 GMT -6
NCO moved up, true, but they gained a lot in reduced travel. They constantly complained about their unfair travel burden and wanted extra compensation from the NCC. Travel cost was a big part of their move and a big part of the Big Sky accepting them. Kind of the opposite situation UND found themselves in.
Hockey is considered a niche sport and as such is allowed a-la-cart D1 membership as a means to assure they can find opponents. As a result you have a lot of D2 and D3 schools with D1 hockey. One thing that bothered the Big 10 and led to them leaving the WCHA for the big 10 league was the niche issue. It angered them that they had to support division 1 for all sports but were competing against teams getting by on the cheap with D2 and D3 athletic budgets. They took their prestige and formed their own conference. If a sport isn’t considered a niche sport the NCAA is recognizing the cost disparity by not allowing competion across division lines sport by sport.
That's is why I keep thinking the Summit could be in a D1 non scholarship league of some kind and the FBS ambitious could be in the MVFC. The Pioneer looks like this:
Butler - - Davidson - - Dayton - - Drake - - Jacksonville - - Marist - - Morehead State - - San Diego - - Stetson - - Valparaiso
Adding a couple more from the Summit might make the Pioneer work better.
These are the D1 hockey schools from the old NCC: If Augie does well those 4 could get back together. All would be non scholarship candidates except maybe UND.
Mankato- 15,000 enrollment Mn Duluth - 11,000 St. Cloud - 17,000c UND - 16,000
Und is a potential member because of their budget problems and hockey first approach. They stayed in D2 five extra years because of the cost. That’s why Mankato and Mn Duluth didn’t move. I think a football league only needs 6 members so with a couple additions from the Summit the Pioneer could have two viable divisions and a league championship game. If you add the other NSIC D1 hockey/D2 other sports to a D1 Summit there are 3 more non scholarship football candidates.
Other Summit non scholarship football candidates:
WIU Southern Illinois
Add Augie and you have a nice 6 - 7 member non scholarship league.
Whole or in part it solves Augies football problem and might solve some other pressing problems too
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Post by Yote 53 on Aug 20, 2018 15:41:20 GMT -6
You are actually making the case why we should not allow Augustana or any of those other schools that cannot afford it into the Summit. Or, at the very least, for the rest of us to get the heck out of the Summit, if these schools are moving in, and push for that internet rumored alliance with the Montanas and Idahos in a new FCS/G5 conference.
I don't want USD having any part of what you are talking about here.
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Post by kiyoat on Aug 20, 2018 16:09:28 GMT -6
We're not all going to agree on which schools to target, or what direction to head, but I for one would like to know what, if any, strategy the League is pursuing. Are we basically in wait-and-see mode with 9 teams? If there is no plan, we should at least add some rando school to get to ten members so the scheduling isn't so all over the place.
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 20, 2018 16:17:10 GMT -6
With no hockey burden I would imagine USD would be in the MVFC for football. Eventually, the MVFC would move into FBS (see siouxvolly). At that time the FBS schools would split all sports if they were going to. In the mean time With no better alternatives all of the NCC schools making the move will be in the Summit providing a stable group of natural rivals.
Looks like school 10 will be Augie Kiyote. If successful The others might move up and that might be the plan?
Ps. Big motivator for moving FBS is the significantly higher guaranties
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 21, 2018 6:08:50 GMT -6
You are actually making the case why we should not allow Augustana or any of those other schools that cannot afford it into the Summit. Or, at the very least, for the rest of us to get the heck out of the Summit, if these schools are moving in, and push for that internet rumored alliance with the Montanas and Idahos in a new FCS/G5 conference. I don't want USD having any part of what you are talking about here. USD is already a part of it. Augie is looking like a done deal. If they are successful as UNO seems to be I would expect to see interest from the others. Football is the tough nut. Saint Cloud might very well drop football as UNO did. Non scholarship is a solution for the football ambitious schools that put hockey first and Augie which is significantly smaller.
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 21, 2018 6:11:31 GMT -6
Northern Colorado didn't quit anyone because of travel. Where did you even get that?\ NCO was a huge outlier in the NCC. The geographical center of that league was probably just west of I29 someplace. They made 1,500 mile round trips 7 times per year in 18 sports. The rest of the NCC only made the trip out there once. This worked the other way for UND.
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Post by kiyoat on Aug 21, 2018 8:49:26 GMT -6
NCO was a huge outlier in the NCC. The geographical center of that league was probably just west of I29 someplace. They made 1,500 mile round trips 7 times per year in 18 sports. The rest of the NCC only made the trip out there once. This worked the other way for UND. I mean, if you want to get technical, the geographic center of the Big Sky falls in south-central Idaho, right near Twin Falls. That's around 1,050 miles away as the crow flies. The geographic center of the NCC, when Northern Colorado left (no UNI), was near Madison, SD. 930 miles away. Currently the center of the Summit is a little east of Sioux City. About the same distance. So technically speaking, UNC is slightly closer to the midwest conferences, but the difference is negligible. They are geographically an outlier in both conferences, with a big travel budget regardless. I think the more salient point is that as much as I'd like to add UNC to the Summit, they are more of a cultural fit in the Big Sky. The region is the mountain west. All the schools are spread out, and there isn't much they can do about it. In the old NCC UNC "felt" like more of an outlier because the geography for the rest of the schools was so tight.
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Post by kiyoat on Aug 21, 2018 8:51:47 GMT -6
I think this is the challenge we are having with the Summit League with the outlier schools of Denver, ORU, WIU and PFW. The fact that the Dakota schools and Omaha are more tight geographically and culturally makes the peripheral schools "feel" like more of an outlier. That's why I think geography plays a big, if intangible and qualitative, role in stability.
In that vein, UNC would help stabilize Denver, UMKC would help stabilize UNO and ORU (somewhat WIU too). Schools in Iowa, Missouri or Illinois would be ideal to include the eastern schools, but most of the good D-1's there are tied to the MVC and aren't leaving for us.
That leaves going after the marginal/bad D-1's like SIUE, Chicago State, etc, (bad option) or looking for excellent D-II schools in the footprint. I'd exclude St. Cloud based on finances. Augie, Mankato, Lindenwood, Central MO, NW Mo, Kearney? None of those schools will meet everyone's smell test, but they are more realistic options then trying to pry good schools out of conferences they are happy in. JMO
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Post by jacksfan29 on Aug 21, 2018 11:56:48 GMT -6
NCO was a huge outlier in the NCC. The geographical center of that league was probably just west of I29 someplace. They made 1,500 mile round trips 7 times per year in 18 sports. The rest of the NCC only made the trip out there once. This worked the other way for UND. I mean, if you want to get technical, the geographic center of the Big Sky falls in south-central Idaho, right near Twin Falls. That's around 1,050 miles away as the crow flies. The geographic center of the NCC, when Northern Colorado left (no UNI), was near Madison, SD. 930 miles away. Currently the center of the Summit is a little east of Sioux City. About the same distance. So technically speaking, UNC is slightly closer to the midwest conferences, but the difference is negligible. They are geographically an outlier in both conferences, with a big travel budget regardless. I think the more salient point is that as much as I'd like to add UNC to the Summit, they are more of a cultural fit in the Big Sky. The region is the mountain west. All the schools are spread out, and there isn't much they can do about it. In the old NCC UNC "felt" like more of an outlier because the geography for the rest of the schools was so tight. The only league UNC would not be a geographical outlier in is the Mountain West. A league they are not getting into. A stable DU in the Summit would be a huge draw for UNC. They have developed no rivalries in the Big Sky and the loss of UND really leaves UNC on an island. I'm not sure UNC to the Summit would ever happen. I do not think it is as crazy as some think it is. Anyone who has every spent time in Greeley and at UNC know the town and school have a lot more in common with the eastern schools of the Summit then the western schools of the Big Sky. It is and always will be a cow town, a teachers college that offers an agriculture degree. A town that has nothing in common with SLC, Portland, Sacramento or Flagstaff. Even Bozeman and Missoula are very different then Greeley. And if you gave me a choice between UNC/UMKC or Augustana/Mankato, even though I'm not a big fan of UMKC, I'm voting UNC/UMKC every single time.
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Post by easmus on Aug 21, 2018 14:48:20 GMT -6
And I don’t think anyone should hold their breath on Mankato or St Cloud moving to D1.
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Post by kiyoat on Aug 22, 2018 8:08:13 GMT -6
The only league UNC would not be a geographical outlier in is the Mountain West. A league they are not getting into. A stable DU in the Summit would be a huge draw for UNC. They have developed no rivalries in the Big Sky and the loss of UND really leaves UNC on an island. I'm not sure UNC to the Summit would ever happen. I do not think it is as crazy as some think it is. Anyone who has every spent time in Greeley and at UNC know the town and school have a lot more in common with the eastern schools of the Summit then the western schools of the Big Sky. It is and always will be a cow town, a teachers college that offers an agriculture degree. A town that has nothing in common with SLC, Portland, Sacramento or Flagstaff. Even Bozeman and Missoula are very different then Greeley. And if you gave me a choice between UNC/UMKC or Augustana/Mankato, even though I'm not a big fan of UMKC, I'm voting UNC/UMKC every single time. I agree with this post. Good points. I think the likely option will end up being Augie/UMKC, though.
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 22, 2018 8:30:17 GMT -6
I agree that we should always seek the best candidates for the Summit. As the new schools step up they should be evaluated. If they fit the bill they should be in.
Augie has an institutional profile far more D2 than SCSU, Mankato and Duluth yet it's Augie that's stepping up. UNO stepped up. SCSU, Mankato and Duluth might want to join UNO and UND in the Summit. It could become a matter of prestige. Augie sure thinks it is.
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