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Post by aldewitt on Aug 31, 2018 6:43:10 GMT -6
With no hockey burden I would imagine USD would be in the MVFC for football. Eventually, the MVFC would move into FBS (see siouxvolly). At that time the FBS schools would split all sports if they were going to. In the mean time With no better alternatives all of the NCC schools making the move will be in the Summit providing a stable group of natural rivals. Looks like school 10 will be Augie Kiyote. If successful The others might move up and that might be the plan? Ps. Big motivator for moving FBS is the significantly higher guaranties “ I'd say this season we're the best of the teams that were 3-8 last year, and have a shot at being in top 25 after homecoming! ” - BarnWinterSportsEngelstad, UND football fan.
I'll have to say dragging along my quote keeps my memory fresh. Auggie should help the Summit. You kept the funny part of your quote but edited out the facts: USD 45 - UND 7, but I agree with you about Augie and the Summit. I saw a bit of the UND football game last night against arguably the worst team in all of D1. By the looks of the attendance and the play on the field UNDs budget problems were explained: not many are interested in watching an underfunded football team. I was more convinced than ever UND is a candidate for Summit non-scholarship football. If there is to be regional expansion of the Summit Non-scholarship football is the only answer for schools that don’t have the budgets to compete but want to keep the game while playing D1 sports. Those schools in our region are mostly the D1 hockey schools that are classified D2. Augie, without hockey, is the exception. UND was seen by the Big 10 as just another D2 sponging off their prestige and was pushed out with the other D2s. Proof positive there is no place for us to go because nobody wants to share their money. We have to build our own leagues, with our rivals in our region and make our own money. it was always budgets that kept the old NCC schools from moving up. The hockey schools stood firm in their opposition. Eventually markets grew and so did budgets until a few could clearly see the way. Now other schools are beginning to experience this growth and the desire to participate. As they grow into D1 as Augie seems to be doing we have to embrace them. Moving all of the D2 hockey schools into the Summit forming a Summit hockey league would save costs over running a separate hockey league. It would provide legitamacy to their programs as they compete in all sports under the same conference flag as the Big 10 insisted it do. These schools will have trouble funding football but non-scholarship would give them an option in the Summit making the move more realistic.
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Post by elcoyote on Aug 31, 2018 7:26:48 GMT -6
I simply just don't see UND going non-scholarship for football. Too much pride and prestige involved. They might struggle in the MVFC at first, bit I think in time they'll become another solid team. Won't be any different than in the old NCC days, although I do realize hockey comes into play in the present. How much that affects things I don't know.
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Post by kiyoat on Aug 31, 2018 8:17:49 GMT -6
Yeah, I think that non-schollie Summit Football, or Summit Hockey are both interesting. Not likely, but at least worthy of discussion.
UND as a non-scholarship football school is a non-starter, though. They are plenty viable as a multi-sport D-1 program, and have plenty of support. Competitiveness in any given sport is cyclical. There are exceptions, but most schools have up and down cycles. When you have sustained success, like NDSU football, Jacks BB or UND hockey, you will draw more fans and more money. The Missouri Valley is tough, but UND will be fine.
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Post by Yote 53 on Aug 31, 2018 8:21:30 GMT -6
I'll have to say dragging along my quote keeps my memory fresh. Auggie should help the Summit. You kept the funny part of your quote but edited out the facts: USD 45 - UND 7, but I agree with you about Augie and the Summit. I saw a bit of the UND football game last night against arguably the worst team in all of D1. By the looks of the attendance and the play on the field UNDs budget problems were explained: not many are interested in watching an underfunded football team. I was more convinced than ever UND is a candidate for Summit non-scholarship football. If there is to be regional expansion of the Summit Non-scholarship football is the only answer for schools that don’t have the budgets to compete but want to keep the game while playing D1 sports. Those schools in our region are mostly the D1 hockey schools that are classified D2. Augie, without hockey, is the exception. UND was seen by the Big 10 as just another D2 sponging off their prestige and was pushed out with the other D2s. Proof positive there is no place for us to go because nobody wants to share their money. We have to build our own leagues, with our rivals in our region and make our own money. it was always budgets that kept the old NCC schools from moving up. The hockey schools stood firm in their opposition. Eventually markets grew and so did budgets until a few could clearly see the way. Now other schools are beginning to experience this growth and the desire to participate. As they grow into D1 as Augie seems to be doing we have to embrace them. Moving all of the D2 hockey schools into the Summit forming a Summit hockey league would save costs over running a separate hockey league. It would provide legitamacy to their programs as they compete in all sports under the same conference flag as the Big 10 insisted it do. These schools will have trouble funding football but non-scholarship would give them an option in the Summit making the move more realistic. Don't come here and peddle this crap about UND. You think none of us Coyotes don't know anything about what goes on up there so we'll just somehow accept what you are saying as truth. First, the bolded part, you actually expect us to believe that? The Big Ten started hockey because Penn State started a program. Conference bylaws stated that when 6 schools offered a sport the conference would sponsor the sport. Period. End of story. Minnesota got drug into the BTHC kicking and screaming and they still aren't happy about having to leave the WCHA and UND. Don't believe me? Look it up, or just go to a Gopher game this winter and look at all the empty seats. The WCHA Final Five used to be a great conference tournament. Now the attendance is so bad for the Big Ten Conference tournament they had to put the games back on campus. The BTHC had to bring in Notre Dame as an affiliate member to pump some life into the conference. Now, don't get me wrong, the BTHC has some very good teams, it's just the fan bases have turned on the programs because they would rather play their natural hockey rivals than their Big Ten rivals. At the same time the BTHC was formed, UND joined with the rest of the hockey powers out west and formed the NCHC. The NCHC is the premier hockey conference in the country, that is a fact. It's better than the Big Ten and it's better than Hockey East. So don't come on here and try to spin it that UND got pushed out by the Big Ten schools and had to form some second rate conference of leftover D2 hockey schools. The NCHC is the SEC of college hockey, that conference is going nowhere, much less reforming into some sort of Summit Hockey Conference. That is just laughable. Second, just stop with this mantra that UND is going to drop scholarship football. That's just not going to happen. You Bison fans might think you can fool us but we are not stupid. We know that UND is the school up north with more money and more resources. Yes, their football team stinks right now, but that is due to coaching and playing a weak brand of Big Sky football. We're better because we have to be better to compete in the MVFC. Steel sharpen steel is the appropriate quote here. Once UND joins the conference, spends some time getting acclimated (and kicked around) they'll figure it out and get better. Third, a Summit non-scholarship football conference is just a dumb idea. Why should our conference put together such an endeavor? Just so a bunch of schools that have no business going D1 because they can't afford it, so they have an avenue to move up? Why would we want to associate with that? We'd be better off adding UMKC to the Summit and calling it good. If we wanted to put together an effort with a bunch of moving pieces and parts, our time would be better spent in meetings with some of the state schools from the Big Sky and creating a conference with them, not spinning our wheels creating something so a bunch of D2 regionals can move up. ETA: Just so you don't think I am some UND homer, I'm actually a Gopher hockey fan. So it actually hurts me to say the things I say about Gopher hockey and the BTHC, but they are the truth.
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Post by kiyoat on Aug 31, 2018 8:38:05 GMT -6
^^^^ ^^^^ Although I don't completely agree with your stances, that was a solid burn. Debating things online using actual facts seems to be a lost art form these days. It requires too much thought and effort. People would rather hurl mindless insults, make baseless claims with no evidence, or blindly follow the "party line" of whatever group they happen to follow. Thoughtful debate and independent thought are becoming an endangered species. (i'm not directing this to any one poster or ideology - this applies to everyone IMHO)
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 31, 2018 18:13:07 GMT -6
Sid Hartman said it several times Yote53. The Big 10 talked about their conference obligations. They even stopped playing UND
Its cart before the horse when you talk formation of the Big 10 Hockey League but one thing is clear: they built a big 10 league so they could keep all the money. That’s a main point as to why the Dakota Schools should just start building from the schools we have, the old NCC schools.
A lot of them have D1 hockey with football secondary. Although speculative a Summit D1 hockey makes sense, so does a Summit non-scholarship football league. So does adding some regional rivals that would give the Summit stability and keep them connected with tradition.
It’s all speculation of course. Take your pick on your favorite future.
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Post by aldewitt on Aug 31, 2018 18:31:22 GMT -6
The point about natural rivals is exactly the point Im making about the old NCC schools.
As far as your claim about attendance and natural rivals some attendance figures before and after would be interesting. The Big 10 dominates college hockey. Minnesota is on hard times.
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Post by Yote 53 on Aug 31, 2018 21:11:27 GMT -6
Minnesota and UND are playing a game in Vegas this year. So I guess MN is really trying to avoid them.
I spend way too much time in too many hockey rinks across the upper Midwest. You are not going to be able to come here and peddle the crap you are about UND hockey, Gopher hockey, the BTHC, or the NCHC, so just stop.
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Post by aldewitt on Sept 1, 2018 3:50:06 GMT -6
Minnesota and UND are playing a game in Vegas this year. So I guess MN is really trying to avoid them. I spend way too much time in too many hockey rinks across the upper Midwest. You are not going to be able to come here and peddle the crap you are about UND hockey, Gopher hockey, the BTHC, or the NCHC, so just stop. How many years did the Gophers refuse to play UND? Why did they stop? Why did the big 10 start their own hockey league pushing everyone else out? Don’t you agree tradition is important in college sports? The Big 10 didnt need UND in their hockey league. They didn’t need anybody but themselves and everyone else was pushed out. Why should they share their money and prestige? they dominate college hockey now. Who is in UNDs hockey league now? This is the NCHC. Call it the Summit. Colorado College Denver Miami Minnesota Duluth North Dakota Omaha St. Cloud State Western Michigan You see, just like hockey, our future is not to avoid our natural rivals, our future is to embrace our past. Work with Augie to get them back in. Welcome Mankato, St Cloud and Duluth. Work with them to make it work for everyone. Non scholarship football is an idea that might have some merit. the old NCC hockey schools UND - now playing D1 hockey and FCS scholarship football MANKATO - D1 hockey, D2 all other sports DULUTH - D1 hockey, D2 all other sports OMAHA - D1 hockey, dropped football, D1 other sports ST Cloud - D1 hockey, D2 all other sports as you see UND is the only school out of that bunch trying to support D1 football and hockey. It’s cost them plenty including their women’s hockey program (4 yrs ago would you have believed that) as well as other sports. Because they are unique in their situation and sruggling they are a candidate for non scholarship. I can’t predict the future, they may not go non scholarship. Augie may not go that route. USD may get sick of the small time and join the WAC or the Big 12, but what is being speculated for the Summit should at least have some under pinning in reality and connection to the past. Its not a personal issue dude. We are talking about the future and what direction it may take. The past has already happened.
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Post by aldewitt on Sept 2, 2018 7:59:08 GMT -6
Question: why is the Summit expansion issue, exploration of alternatives and finally non scholarship football potentials so emotional?
it seems to me:
On the one hand there is the business model for the non scholarship football. This is objective, subject to direct comparison and measurement. UND is certainly a candidate when compared to the other regional schools with the same sports configurations and budgets.
Others are talking about their pride and prestige. These issues are emotional, subjective and not given over to measurement. Emotions can blind institutions to their own self destructive behavior. It’s caused UND to act in self destructive ways in the past costing them dearly.
More than likely UNDs pride will keep them out of non scholarship football at least until their financial position becomes untenable again, if ever. Last time they recognized they had busted their budget they had to quit the BSC, cut women’s hockey and other sports. Of course they may find a way to sustain their programs. That is the status-quo. It has inertia. But, if they bust their budgets again non scholarship or even dropping football could be on the table.
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Post by kiyoat on Sept 20, 2018 8:34:55 GMT -6
I found a discussion of Summit League expansion Division-II targets on a D-II fan message board: www.d2messageboard.com/showthread.php?t=85900The discussion is from the Summer of 2017, a little over a year ago. Despite that fact, it is interesting to me, because there are posters that are fans from many of the schools we have mentioned here, giving their opinions of the feasibility of moving up to D-1 and joining the Summit. Teams from the Northern Sun, MIAA, etc. are represented. Kind of a non-sequitur, since we are in the middle of the FB season, but it's a BYE week, so what the hell.
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Post by aldewitt on Sept 20, 2018 14:34:41 GMT -6
Interesting thread. Because of list of D2 atletic budgets its not as long as it looks.
Didnt know this:
That should help any team thinking about venturing in but in all likely hood we are going to see a D2 and it's probably Augie.
The thing everyone thinks is keeping back Mankato, Duluth and St. Cloud is money. Broke because of hockey they can't afford D1. UND is the only one of the bunch that was able to have D1 sports and D1 hockey. I'ts been hard on them too.
to emphasize the point there is a let’s help bubba fund raiser on sioux sports. They are trying to raise dollars for basics like tape and safety equipment now in short supply or not available through program funds. They are broke because of hockey.
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Post by easmus on Sept 21, 2018 9:02:51 GMT -6
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Post by kiyoat on Sept 21, 2018 9:23:14 GMT -6
Nice article. Lots of similar sentiments from the D-II message board vs. the D-II Athletic Directors they interviewed for that article. Here are a couple of quotes: ... It's true FCS has seen a drain of top programs since 2014, when powerhouses Appalachian State and Georgia Southern, plus Old Dominion, bolted for the Football Bowl Subdivision. They were followed in 2016 by Coastal Carolina, a playoff regular. ... Every AD agreed with Reinhard—they are hearing more rumblings about schools wanting to move down from Division I instead of up from Division II. ... Jim Johnson of Pittsburg State said NDSU, North Dakota and the South Dakota Division I schools are in different positions within their state hierarchy than the smaller Division II schools they left behind. They are the major universities in their states, not regional schools with smaller donor bases.
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Post by easmus on Sept 21, 2018 9:49:52 GMT -6
That last point is the biggest argument against Augie. Small enrollment, private school, too much $ each year to fund a move up. I think Augie is nuts to move up.
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