Comparing the Eras of Coyote Football

[nccyote]

I may be totally off my rocker here, but I don't think either of the teams from 2004-2007 would be any worse than the coyotes are now. The NCC at the end of its run was not even close to the MVFC, but those were some very good football teams that were made up of kids from IA, MN, NE, and SD. D2 football is very watered down now that the NCC is gone and most of the kids who would've gone to D2 schools in the region are still going to places like NDSU, USD, SDSU, UND. So even though its FCS, those schools are still getting the same kind of kids for the most part. I think the 2 conferences (NCC in its glory days) are actually pretty comparable. I'm not saying that the '05 team would have won the Valley, but I think we would've finished in the top 1/2 aboslutely.

[coyotecrazie5]

Nov 6, 2015 8:38:09 GMT -6 nccyote said:

I may be totally off my rocker here, but I don't think either of the teams from 2004-2007 would be any worse than the coyotes are now. The NCC at the end of its run was not even close to the MVFC, but those were some very good football teams that were made up of kids from IA, MN, NE, and SD. D2 football is very watered down now that the NCC is gone and most of the kids who would've gone to D2 schools in the region are still going to places like NDSU, USD, SDSU, UND. So even though its FCS, those schools are still getting the same kind of kids for the most part. I think the 2 conferences (NCC in its glory days) are actually pretty comparable. I'm not saying that the '05 team would have won the Valley, but I think we would've finished in the top 1/2 aboslutely.

I can agree with you, the 05 team is the best team I have seen since following the Yotes from around 1998. Don't forget AJ Schable on the D line as well. The only thing I would say now from that team may be more depth. Fredrick looks good, but Logan was on a different level IMO.

[Yote 53]

Nov 6, 2015 8:38:09 GMT -6 nccyote said:

I may be totally off my rocker here, but I don't think either of the teams from 2004-2007 would be any worse than the coyotes are now. The NCC at the end of its run was not even close to the MVFC, but those were some very good football teams that were made up of kids from IA, MN, NE, and SD. D2 football is very watered down now that the NCC is gone and most of the kids who would've gone to D2 schools in the region are still going to places like NDSU, USD, SDSU, UND. So even though its FCS, those schools are still getting the same kind of kids for the most part. I think the 2 conferences (NCC in its glory days) are actually pretty comparable. I'm not saying that the '05 team would have won the Valley, but I think we would've finished in the top 1/2 aboslutely.

No. You've been to a Valley conference game? I know you have. Just, no. The level of play today is far, far greater than it was at the tail end of the NCC. The players are bigger, stronger, and faster across the board. There were some great individual players back then, obviously, since a few of those boys made their way to NFL and CFL rosters, but position by position the teams today is better and deeper than any of those teams.

[Yotes]

Basically every team in the Valley has at least one guy with a shot at the NFL. I doubt that was the case in the NCC.

[nccyote]

Nov 6, 2015 10:20:59 GMT -6 Yotes said:

Basically every team in the Valley has at least one guy with a shot at the NFL. I doubt that was the case in the NCC.

The '05 team had 5 guys who actually played that season that ended up in NFL training camps (Schable, Hagemann, Alderson, Morton, Logan) 2 of which played several years in the League...even more if you look at underclassman.  Again, I'm not saying that '05 team would have been dominant, but there is no way in hell that team loses to USD '14.  I agree, from top to bottom, its no comparison on team strength.  But starters vs. starters, Yotes '05 is just as good, if not better, at most positions on offense as they have been the last 3 years.  Again just my opinion, like I said I might be off my rocker.

[Yote 53]

Hate to say it but you might be a little. 2005 team was nice, but let's be realistic for a moment. First, the program today has much greater resources and is recruiting at a much higher level. 63 scholarships vs 36, recruiting players who are deciding between FBS and FCS school as opposed to D2, D3, or NAIA schools. Completely different level of athletes and more of them. Second, I just watch the games, the simple eye test, everything is bigger and faster now than it was 10 years ago. Really, not much comparison. Comparing team against team, the 2014 squad would have run right through the 2005 squad and defensively would shut down the 2005 offense. Not a knock on the 2005 team, just a different time and situation in the program's history.

[nccyote]

Nov 6, 2015 11:49:19 GMT -6 Yote 53 said:

Hate to say it but you might be a little. 2005 team was nice, but let's be realistic for a moment. First, the program today has much greater resources and is recruiting at a much higher level. 63 scholarships vs 36, recruiting players who are deciding between FBS and FCS school as opposed to D2, D3, or NAIA schools. Completely different level of athletes and more of them. Second, I just watch the games, the simple eye test, everything is bigger and faster now than it was 10 years ago. Really, not much comparison. Comparing team against team, the 2014 squad would have run right through the 2005 squad and defensively would shut down the 2005 offense. Not a knock on the 2005 team, just a different time and situation in the program's history.

That's a fair assessment, I guess we will just agree to disagree.  

[Yotes]

Nov 6, 2015 12:01:27 GMT -6 nccyote said:

Nov 6, 2015 11:49:19 GMT -6 Yote 53 said:

Hate to say it but you might be a little. 2005 team was nice, but let's be realistic for a moment. First, the program today has much greater resources and is recruiting at a much higher level. 63 scholarships vs 36, recruiting players who are deciding between FBS and FCS school as opposed to D2, D3, or NAIA schools. Completely different level of athletes and more of them. Second, I just watch the games, the simple eye test, everything is bigger and faster now than it was 10 years ago. Really, not much comparison. Comparing team against team, the 2014 squad would have run right through the 2005 squad and defensively would shut down the 2005 offense. Not a knock on the 2005 team, just a different time and situation in the program's history.

That's a fair assessment, I guess we will just agree to disagree.  

I think you do have a point about some of the talent on the 2005 team being above what we see in the 2015 team. AJ Schable and Stefan Logan both hung around in the NFL for a few years, I don't know if any of this year's seniors will have a good shot at that and none of last year's seniors are currently with an NFL team. Clearly there were some stars on that 2005 team. I do find it hard to believe that as a unit they would be able to compete with the current football team though.

[nccyote]

One last point....look at the majority of the Dakota schools' rosters. Where are those kids coming from? 80% are from IA, NE, SD, ND, MN, WI. Prior to the Dakotas going FCS, where would those kids have gone to play ball? Were they all going to receive FBS interest, no. There were no FCS programs in the region at that time other than UNI. So where would those kids have ended up? Would they all walk on at FBS schools? No, most of the kids that would have ended up at FCS schools back then were going D2 at that time. Recruiting has changed in this region due to the amount of money they receive, but not particularly in which schools they attend. If anything, it has opened up new doors for kids that are attending schools like Augie, USF, Wayne St, and other NSIC schools in the area because a lot of kids that would have gone D3 or NAIA now have the opportunity to play D2 since the major players in D2 have gone to FCS. So while teams in the Valley are MUCH MUCH deeper in terms of talent from top to bottom, there isn't as big as of a gap in talent between starters from the D2 era and starters in the FCS era, because they are the same type of kids. Kids who received big $ in the D2 era are primarily the same as who are receiving $ in the FCS era. Look at Van Ginkel. Where would he have gone if USD was still D2? Would he have automatically gone to UNI? Nope, because they didn't offer him. So more than likely, one of the most talented kids on the roster in the FCS era would have ended up in the same spot even if USD were still D2. Look at the top players from that '05 team. A.J. Stable would still be Coyote in '15 because he would have had offers from the exact same schools now as he did back then. Brian Alderson chose USD over SDSU, Adam Schwaderer chose USD over SDSU and UND, Wesley chose USD over UNO and walk on offers at Iowa St and Iowa. You can continue down the list. See my point? Players in the region didn't just automatically get bigger and faster because the Dakota schools went FCS. They are picking from the exact same talent pool in the region now that they were 10 years ago, its just that the FCS brand allows then to make a bigger splash nation wide when you get into TX, CA, FL and those talent rich places where they would have had very little chance in D2.

Sorry, for rambling, but my point here is that just because schools are FCS now, doesn't necessarily mean that they are head and shoulders better than they used to be. Deeper, absolutely....but look at the best players form D2 era rosters and they would match up pretty well with most players now. My guess is 90% of the players on these Dakota School rosters now would have ended up in the NCC back in '05.

[Yotes]

That argument makes sense for a number of local players, but how many starters on our team are from the area in question and how many have been imported? The point you have made was probably why the NCC stood above the rest of D2. Lots of guys that could have played FCS but had no FCS schools in the area. But those kids are not the bulk of the team are they?

[yote14]

It's interesting because once the Dakota schools went D1 is when schools like Augie, MN Duluth, Mankato etc became relevant in football. Mankato was in the DII championship game last year. Duluth won a couple championships recently. When was the last time Augie was ranked or relevant like they have been as of late. In basketball too.

The talent the Dakota schools were getting is now shifted to those schools and USF since they moved up IMO.

[nccyote]

There are 41 players on the roster that are not from the states that I mentioned, and that number includes 12 players from Illinois, which has been a huge recruiting state since Ed came to USD. So that takes the number down to 29 out of 105 (27%)

[Yote 53]

Even if what you are saying is true NCCYotes the only thing you are proving by your theory is that the old NCC was one heck of a conference and could very well have competed as a D1AA conference. Honestly, you won't get much of an argument from many of us old timers because that is what we actually believe. In fact, it was proposed at one time the entire conference should move up en masse. The old NCC was the premier division 2 conference in the country prior to the departures. I remember it even being referred to as the Big Ten Light.

Where the argument falls apart for the 2005 team was that UNC, NDSU, and SDSU had already moved up by then. I could argue that during that time the XDSU's were skimming all the top talent in the region because they were selling the D1 label, leaving less for USD, UND, and Augie to pull in, meaning the teams had less talent available to them. However, at the same time their leaving opened a door for USD to rise up and contend because they no longer had to deal with two major power players in the NCC (UNC and NDSU) and SDSU. Was USD's success during that time period a product of USD getting good, or was it because some major players had moved on and we were able to win in a watered down NCC and D2? I know of some other school's fans who say just that.

I remember the days of the old NCC when the Coyotes struggled to be a mid-level conference team, often in the bottom half of the conference. Yet, without much problem at all were able to blow away all their non-conference D2 opponents. Sound familiar to what is happening today in the MVFC?

All that I stated above is just speculation. Speculation that has been discussed among these various message boards for the past decade, going back to the days of D2football.com. What I think is closer to reality is what yote14 just posted, that we actually are now shopping at a market with higher level athletes, the athletes the old NCC teams used to get are now going to the NSIC schools and they have now become major players in D2 as a result. The number if in-state recruits USD signs anymore is very few, not near as many as when we were D2, those kids are now going to Augie, USF, etc.

[nccyote]

This isn't just an argument for the '05 team, but the entire D2 era. Even in the NCC days, there was not a whole lot of SD kids that were starters at USD, at least when I was there. Just not enough population in the state to have a large talent pool. There was a good number of SD kids on the team, just not a lot of starters. Similar to the Nebraska residents on the Nebraska football team. Maybe 2-3 on each side of the ball. The rest were from border states like NE, IA, and MN. So we are able to recruit more players with more scholarships. Where do you we think that these kids are coming from?

I am not trying to start a senseless argument, because like it has been said already, this is just speculation and fun banter. But the roster is primarily made up of kids from the same states as 10-15-20 years ago. These kids didn't just magically appear out of thin air when the NCC dissolved and went FCS. The kids that are going to Augie are the same kids that have always gone to Augie.

Was the NCC watered down towards the end of its run, definitely. But UNC leaving had no effect on our recruiting. You mention the state schools skimming the top talent during those years, but the XDSU's had the disadvantage in recruiting players that had no chance of playing in a postseason during that run. And honestly the FCS transition had no bearing on the '05 teams success since most of the players on that team committed to the '01 class way before anybody had any inkling of FCS in the Dakotas.

I know its hard to tell I'm a little biased towards the "05 team!

[Coyote Fan]

If the game was played at the dome the 2005 team would win and possibly going away. They were dominant at home. The current version of the Yotes aren't that good at home. The 2005 offense played differently at home than on the road. That offense was lethal and would put 30-40 points on the board against this years team easily. They had a passing game and Logan could make alot happen on his own. Almost every skilled position player was better in 2005. Who knows about the lines then vs now but probably not much difference. I would probably take the 2015 defense but by far the offense of 2005 would carry the day. Glen Caruso vs Beschorner would be a mismatch in the coaching ranks. Beschorner the coach does not hold a candle to Wes the QB. The upper echelon of D2 is not that far behind the mid level FCS teams. I would take 2005 team 42-21 if they played head to head.