USD vs. SDSU and other info

[cascade]

I'm rather new to South Dakota and have enjoyed watching USD and SDSU make the move to FCS status. Can someone give me some perspective here. Why is USD's enrollment so much smaller than SDSU's. This appears to translate into athletic funding, meaning SDSU's athletic budget is quite a bit larger, making the transition easier I imagine.

Also, for a newbie, can someone without devolving into smack explain the difference in culture between the two universities. I understand one is the lang grant institution and has the ag programs, and the other has the professional graduate programs, but there appears to be a good deal of overlap as well. For example, you can get a degree that allows you to teach high school English from both. Can someone help out a newbie who really wants to be supportive of the state schools? Thanks.

[usdlaw]

Loaded question. I'll try later when I get a chance, unless someone beats me to it.

[jackjd]

Dec 28, 2010 16:16:11 GMT -6 cascade said:

...can someone without devolving into smack explain the difference in culture between the two universities....

That's an excellent question but I think there may be as many different answers as there are alumni from the two schools.

[yotemeal]

Dec 28, 2010 23:27:04 GMT -6 jackjd said:

Dec 28, 2010 16:16:11 GMT -6 cascade said:

...can someone without devolving into smack explain the difference in culture between the two universities....

That's an excellent question but I think there may be as many different answers as there are alumni from the two schools.

Agree with my good friend, JackJD. Suffice it to say both universities have a rich history with each other and independently. From an athletics standpoint, radical transformations are taking place before our eyes at USD and SDSU. I will concede that, yes, SDSU did get a head start This sort of goes to what I was speaking to in yesterday's posts; SDSU and USD both have much to be proud of.

[usdlaw]

First, Cascade - welcome to South Dakota. Thanks for your support of the schools even though you appear to not have any affiliation to either. With that said, you can join the Howling Pack if you want. See www.howlingpack.com for details.

I think some of what he was looking for can be objectively stated. To answer some of your questions, SDSU has traditionally had about 2,000 more students than USD. Why? I don't really know, but that has been true for a long time, not a recent thing with the move to D1. If I remember right, when I was in undergrad USD had about 7,000 and SDSU 9,000, now I think it is something like 11,000 USD and 13,000 SDSU.

USD traditionally probably has more Sioux Falls kids (although that is becoming less prevalent), and Iowa and Nebraska kids. USD has a large Greek life -lots of frats and sororities.

SDSU probably has more small town kids and Minnesota kids. Greek life is not that prevalent at SDSU they have a couple, but nothing like USD, which does, like it or not, play into the culture a little.

Because of all the frats USD can be clicky at times. In order to get our students involved at USD athletics we need to find a way to involve the Greek community. They come as one big group or they don't come at all. My Greek friends don't like it when I say clicky, but it is what it is. I'm not knocking the Greek life, it has its advantages for many people.

Budget wise, SDSU has a larger budget mostly because of rodeo. That's an expensive sport. There are other reasons, but that is a clear objective one. SDSU has more sports also so while the budget is higher so are the expenses.

USD probably has more non-trads, but I have nothing to base that off of. The reason I say that is because of all the professional schools at USD - med school, law school, and MBA program, etc. SDSU has the pharmacy school and engineering.

From a fan base perspective, SDSU probably gets better support from neighboring towns to Brookings. USD gets some support from Yankton, Elk Point, etc., but nothing to the extent SDSU gets from surrounding small towns. That is clear by attendance numbers. While Brookings is a larger town than Verm, many small town people around Brookings attend SDSU games at a better rate than neighboring towns around Verm attend USD games.

I'm obviously skewed in my viewpoint of Greek life, but I tried to be objective at least in comparing the two schools in some differences between the two. I recognize that you may get an entirely different perspective from some of my frat boy friends on this site.

[jackjd]

Cascade:
I stand by my prior post that you'll likely receive as many different answers to your question as there are alums for both USD and SDSU. I just read USDLaw's take on your inquiry and I respectfully disagree with many of his statements, particularly statements about SDSU. (One example: Rodeo most expensive sport? He may have been thinking about Equestrian which is an expensive inter-collegiate sport but it is not the most expensive sport at SDSU.)

I think your best bet is to look at objective sources for information. Here are some links:

GoJacks.com this is the official SDSU Athletics website. Note Rodeo is not a listed sport; Women's Equestrian is. (SDSU has a very good rodeo club but it is not under the athletic dept. The SDSU Rodeo Club is described at this link: sdstate.edu/rodeo/index.cfm

www.sdbor.edu/ This is the web address for the SD Board of Regents which controls all universities in the State. You can go back and read press releases etc for several years.

The Board of Regents publishes an annual report on the universities which includes a detailed analysis about everything from enrollment, programs and degrees and athletics at each institution. I tried to find a link on the BOR website (didn't spend a lot of time at it) but couldn't readily locate one. The most recent report has been discussed on this message board and the SDSU message board (the address for the SDSU message board is
sdsufans.com/board/index.php


Here's the address for the thread on this message board discussing the BOR report:
usdcoyotesports.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=usd&action=display&thread=159

Here's the address for the thread on SDSUFans.com message board discussing the same BOR report:
sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?t=8430&page=2

Unfortunately, it seems like the report is no longer available on the BOR site: posters on both this board and SDSUFans.com note the link appears to no longer work. But, you can glean some of the information from the report by what the posters have said.

As far as the "culture" of each university, I have my notions like everyone else. There are differences -- but, are the differences I perceive the same as the differences some other person perceives? Big question. I have degrees from both schools and had sons go through one school or the other. I think its common to have a bias for one school based on where a person puts down some roots -- perhaps through participation in an organization, athletics, writing hilarious columns in the newspaper (ala' Yotemeal), coldest beer etc. etc. All pretty subjective stuff. I can attest that both are fine institutions. Both schools can point to countless graduates as shining examples of what one can do with a degree from either school. Both schools, like nearly every university, need financial support to maintain their high standards.

[usdlaw]

Heck JackJD I didn't even say anything bad about SDSU. I made the rodeo comment, (yes I knew equestrian, my cousin was on the team in the mid 1990s - was being funny there) because of the BOR report. I printed it before they took it off the website. I was just pointing out that equestrian had a $1,022,798 expense on the SDSU side, something USD does not have. Likewise, baseball - expense of $374,212, and wrestling - expense of $292,639, are all three sports USD does not have. While they produce income, these expenses play a large part in the overall difference in athletic department budget differences between the two schools. Equestrian is the third most expensive sport at SDSU behind football and basketball. I thought he was just looking for examples of differences. THat is an objective example with the actual numbers as posted by the Fiscal Year 2010 BOR report.

Other than that I didn't think I said anything negative about SDSU, heck I complimented them on the better fan support.

[usdlaw]

by the way, my culture comment on the Greek life was actually a positive statement about SDSU, not a dig at them. I was referring to the certain clicks formed at USD because of the extensive Greek community at USD.

I was also just trying to point out that at day 1 SDSU has about $1.7 million in expenses over and above USD because of those three sports. That's not a dig at SDSU, just stating actual numbers. I didn't even get into the income side on purpose.

[jackjd]

Dec 29, 2010 14:26:24 GMT -6 usdlaw said:

Heck JackJD I didn't even say anything bad about SDSU.

You didn't write anything bad about SDSU I didn't take any offense at anything you wrote. I apologize to you if my post seemed critical. It wasn't intended to be critical.

I will point out that if your cousin participated in something involving horses in the mid-1990s, it wasn't Equestrian. It must have been the rodeo club. The Equestrian team was started in the Fall of 2004 (first coach hired August, 2004). It was an obvious way to add more athletic scholarships for women to balance the increased scholarships for men when athletics moved up from D-II to D-I and football scholarships in partcular jumped. Fact is, the Equestrian program, while expensive to run, is also one that attracts a lot of financial support. The "horse community" in South Dakota strongly supports the program. I know a few non-SDSU people chuckled at the addition but once you read about the other major universities SDSU competes against in Equestrian, and you consider many South Dakotans like horses, it makes a lot of sense.

On the subject of frats: its my impression the influence of fraternities at USD, while still strong, has diminished over the years (compare to the 70s when I was in undergrad at SDSU and then law school at USD). During that same time period, fraternities at SDSU have slowly grown...SDSU now has six male and four female fraternities (in the old days, the female organizations were called sororities but I guess that's not correct any more).

The discussion threads on the message boards note the differences in expenses, the number of sports etc. but on the other side, also note the differences in gate receipts and the income side of the picture.

[usdlaw]

Yep, she was in the rodeo club. Equestrian vs Rodeo, six one way - half a dozen the other to me.

And you are right, there is no doubt gate receipts favored SDSU by about $800,000 in FY10, which is part of why I made the comment about fan support being better from surrounding towns up north. The general activity fee was about $1.5 million higher for SDSU. While SDSU has larger expenses it certainly has larger income. SDSU also has about $600,000 more in corporate scholarships than USD according to the report.

To give the actual numbers
SDSU income $11,376,667
SDSU expenses $11,478,993

USD income $6,178,639
USD expenses $6,203,126

Those are for FY10 numbers from the BOR report.

[cascade]

Thanks guys. This is good stuff. Anyone else have input on differences/similarities between USD/SDSU, Brookings/Vermillion, Yotes/Jacks?

[cascade]

Dec 29, 2010 13:57:17 GMT -6 jackjd said:

Cascade:

GoJacks.com this is the official SDSU Athletics website.

Another question -- I notice the SDSU board has nearly 2,000 members and the two North Dakota boards have 4,000 and 5,000. This one has only 96? Is there another fan forum, or are Yote fans too busy living life while the others are talking about it?

[yotemeal]

Dec 29, 2010 15:52:21 GMT -6 cascade said:

Dec 29, 2010 13:57:17 GMT -6 jackjd said:

Cascade:

GoJacks.com this is the official SDSU Athletics website.

Another question -- I notice the SDSU board has nearly 2,000 members and the two North Dakota boards have 4,000 and 5,000. This one has only 96? Is there another fan forum, or are Yote fans too busy living life while the others are talking about it?

www.usdcoyotes.com is the official website of USD athletics. www.usd.edu is the official university website. This site, www.goyotes.net, is not officially affiliated with USD or its athletics department.

Books could be written about the differences between the two universities and their surroundings. I won't even attempt to offer my take. I think the best way to get a feel is to explore the websites, take in a sporting event or two and talk to the people. Great people in red and blue. And then form your own opinion. As I mentioned before, USD is nearing the end of its D-I transition, while SDSU recently finished that process. The two schools will soon be joined in the same conference (for basketball next season (Summit League) and football the following year (Missouri Valley Football Conference)).

SDSU does have an active message board community, one I think you might prefer to Bisonville (NDSU), which is a bit more, let's say, wild west. This board is really in its infancy and trying to gain steam. I encourage you to participate.

[yotemeal]

Dec 29, 2010 13:57:17 GMT -6 jackjd said:

Cascade:
I stand by my prior post that you'll likely receive as many different answers to your question as there are alums for both USD and SDSU. I just read USDLaw's take on your inquiry and I respectfully disagree with many of his statements, particularly statements about SDSU. (One example: Rodeo most expensive sport? He may have been thinking about Equestrian which is an expensive inter-collegiate sport but it is not the most expensive sport at SDSU.)

I think your best bet is to look at objective sources for information. Here are some links:

GoJacks.com this is the official SDSU Athletics website. Note Rodeo is not a listed sport; Women's Equestrian is. (SDSU has a very good rodeo club but it is not under the athletic dept. The SDSU Rodeo Club is described at this link: sdstate.edu/rodeo/index.cfm

www.sdbor.edu/ This is the web address for the SD Board of Regents which controls all universities in the State. You can go back and read press releases etc for several years.

The Board of Regents publishes an annual report on the universities which includes a detailed analysis about everything from enrollment, programs and degrees and athletics at each institution. I tried to find a link on the BOR website (didn't spend a lot of time at it) but couldn't readily locate one. The most recent report has been discussed on this message board and the SDSU message board (the address for the SDSU message board is
sdsufans.com/board/index.php


Here's the address for the thread on this message board discussing the BOR report:
usdcoyotesports.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=usd&action=display&thread=159

Here's the address for the thread on SDSUFans.com message board discussing the same BOR report:
sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?t=8430&page=2

Unfortunately, it seems like the report is no longer available on the BOR site: posters on both this board and SDSUFans.com note the link appears to no longer work. But, you can glean some of the information from the report by what the posters have said.

As far as the "culture" of each university, I have my notions like everyone else. There are differences -- but, are the differences I perceive the same as the differences some other person perceives? Big question. I have degrees from both schools and had sons go through one school or the other. I think its common to have a bias for one school based on where a person puts down some roots -- perhaps through participation in an organization, athletics, writing hilarious columns in the newspaper (ala' Yotemeal), coldest beer etc. etc. All pretty subjective stuff. I can attest that both are fine institutions. Both schools can point to countless graduates as shining examples of what one can do with a degree from either school. Both schools, like nearly every university, need financial support to maintain their high standards.

Everyone knows the beer tastes the best at Carey's in downtown Vermillion! And the girls are prettier

[GoYotes]

Carey's is an instituiton in a class of its own.

With regards to differences between the U and State, one of the key differences is that approximately 65% of the students at the U are female compared to only about 55% at State.