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Post by Yotes on May 24, 2017 10:48:50 GMT -6
The med school needs satellite locations, not a relevant comparison.
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Post by Cousin Eddie on May 24, 2017 11:07:09 GMT -6
The med school needs satellite locations, not a relevant comparison. Law Schools work better with practical opportunities. In addition, increased interaction and involvement with the best attorneys in specific practice areas is of great value. In general, a review of the best law schools in the country would reflect this. Being in locations that allow for improved interaction with with law firms, high traffic court systems and governmental agencies is beneficial to students. Another facet of this is the Law School needs to attract out-of-state students to cover funding shortfalls. To attract out-of-state students, unless there's a high demand for jobs in the area, which there isn't presently (relatively speaking), you need to provide amenities and atmospheres that attract young adults and nontraditional out-of-state students. Enlighten me on why a med school needs satellite locations but a Law School does not. Listen, I am not advocating for one side or another. However I do believe that it is a wise decision to evaluate the situation thoroughly.
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Post by yotefan on May 24, 2017 15:14:13 GMT -6
I agree that a law school needs satellite locations to function and I would offer this need has been and is currently being met in the form of summer internships between the first and second year of law school as students fill internships throughout the state and region, not just in Sioux Falls. I would also offer that the best attorneys in specific practice areas are not exclusive to Sioux Falls.
I had one such internship in the AG's office in Pierre and had the increased interaction and involvement with some of the best attorneys in the state that you mentioned. The law school being located in Sioux Falls wouldn't have changed that experience and it won't change the experiences of students already filling these internships. I worry a bit that trying to cater to the big Sioux Falls firms, of which I am a shareholder, comes at the expense of current State bar efforts to locate students in more rural settings through efforts like Project Rural Practice. Frankly, I think these are the incentives we should be pursuing and needs we should be looking to meet instead of attempting to cater to out of state and non-traditional students looking to get a law degree and leave the state. Those incentives have proven to offer a bigger economic return on investment in the end for South Dakota.
Again, I stand by my earlier comment above, if you are working hard in law school and are involved with law school activities like moot court, law review, etc...you don't have time to be working extra hours at a firm during the school year if the ultimate goal is to pass the bar exam upon graduation. This of course presupposes a legal instruction landscape that will remain predicated on the traditional 3 year model to prepare you to take a two day test that largely has little to do with the rest of your career as an attorney. This model also counts on a world that values attorneys and the advice they provide amdist a growing Legalzoom type mentality that believes lawyers are unnecessary and overpaid, that is, until someone actually needs a good one who knows what the hell they are talking about.
I know I am preaching to the choir with Eddie, but what chaps me on this whole deal is the lack of input from the State Bar, finding out about this committee from Keloland, and the overall slippery slope even this discussion presents for the University. When we talk a growing USD presence in Sioux Falls, I take no issue with the opportunities the research park provides us, they are fantastic, but to ignore the over $100 million in campus improvements that have been made since I graduated law school feels like it is lacking some business sense.
I will close with this thought. At home I have USD year books that date all the way back to some of the first graduating classes at USD. There are pictures of law school classes that often times numbered only a handful of students. These graduates earned their law degrees and went back home to "hang up a shingle" and set to work building a practice. They became the fabric of their small towns and cities and became trusted advisers and community servants. I would offer that the practice of law has certainly changed since those days, from electronic research to the bar exam, but at the end of the day, the law is still the law. You learn the basics whether you are in Vermillion or Sioux Falls and whether you attend Harvard or USD. The cases and the textbooks are largely the same from one institution to the next, only the messengers are different. So far, the only rational argument I have heard supporting a move to Sioux Falls are the opportunities that come with such a move, but I fail to see how they are lost by remaining in Vermillion.
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Post by gopheryote on May 24, 2017 15:24:26 GMT -6
I'm a non-lawyer, but isn't the underlying issue here a shrinking enrollment in the law school? If enrollment was full, this is a non-discussion, right? The BOR is a difficult bureaucracy to figure out at times, but there is only 1 law school in SD, and when that enrollment goes down, they get nervous. Not sure this is meant to me a statement about Vermillion vs. Sioux Falls, or even a statement about keeping up with modern education models for professional schools, though I understand why people may take it that way.
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Post by Yotes on May 24, 2017 15:35:03 GMT -6
The med school needs satellite locations, not a relevant comparison. Law Schools work better with practical opportunities. In addition, increased interaction and involvement with the best attorneys in specific practice areas is of great value. In general, a review of the best law schools in the country would reflect this. Being in locations that allow for improved interaction with with law firms, high traffic court systems and governmental agencies is beneficial to students. Another facet of this is the Law School needs to attract out-of-state students to cover funding shortfalls. To attract out-of-state students, unless there's a high demand for jobs in the area, which there isn't presently (relatively speaking), you need to provide amenities and atmospheres that attract young adults and nontraditional out-of-state students. Enlighten me on why a med school needs satellite locations but a Law School does not. Listen, I am not advocating for one side or another. However I do believe that it is a wise decision to evaluate the situation thoroughly. I agree that it is wise to explore all options available. Not sure they had to publicly state an alternative site was being researched, but by all means research Sioux Falls if the leadership believes they could be more successful by either relocating or expanding there. Now, I am neither a Law or Medicine grad, but from my outside perspective it is absolutely mandatory that we have locations outside of Vermillion for Med students to practice because they have to be in hospitals with real patients. No opportunity for that in Vermillion given the limited population, so we need outside facilities in order to train tomorrow's doctors. Practical experience is key for these students. USD producing qualified lawyers from the Vermillion campus for over a century seems like enough evidence to say that satellite locations aren't mandatory. Practical experience is helpful in any field, and our Law students may benefit from being located in the same city that those practical opportunities are in, but the degree itself appears to require little practical experience (just looking at the curriculum and based on the few Law students I have known). A satellite location in Sioux Falls may be beneficial, but not mandatory. I think it would be a big mistake to entirely relocate the Law School. Slippery slope as someone else said. Expanding to Sioux Falls in order to attract more students and give them more opportunities is worth looking into though.
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jackjd
Senior Member
Posts: 653
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Post by jackjd on Oct 4, 2017 9:02:43 GMT -6
I used to work graduate admissions at USD. We acted as a liaison for all graduate programs, except Law and Medicine. I can tell you that a ton of applications from SDSU grads came through. Your few examples of programs a USD grad would go north for are all offered at USD, I'm very skeptical that a noteworthy amount do so. I gave just a couple of examples to illustrate the point that USD undergrads do go to SDSU for graduate degrees. I know many who did so. Others had written they were not aware of that happening. I think the numbers are noteworthy. More important: We are fortunate that the Regents and the institutions in the system do not think like some sports fans. I think an important question that must be addressed (and is being addressed in some fashion by such discussions as whether the law school should be moved to Sioux Falls, a move I oppose) is why some students do not view USD as a preferred option for a graduate degree. [This discussion is some pretty bad thread drift...many would probably prefer to get back to the main topic.]
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Post by coyotecrazie5 on Oct 4, 2017 9:09:18 GMT -6
They like USD and Ddays they just planned it without thinking of the football schedule. I am guessing there are a lot of people our there like this which is the point of my original post. It may not make sense to you, but that is how it is where I live.
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jackjd
Senior Member
Posts: 653
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Post by jackjd on Oct 4, 2017 9:13:46 GMT -6
... JackJD, good to have you back on the board. You are spot on about the law school. Moving from Vermillion to Sioux Falls under the notion of bringing in higher quality students and better faculty is misguided to say the least. Doing so for the sake of "providing more professional development opportunities" is equally misguided as those opportunities are and always will be available each summer not just in Sioux Falls, but across South Dakota. During the year, students should be too busy for an internship given the opportunities already available through boards like law review and moot court, grad assistantships, volunteer organizations, and joint degree programs. The law school has served SD well for over a hundred years in Vermillion and produced hundreds of fantastic attorneys during this time. There are only so many law schools in the country and if a student or professor doesn't wish to learn or teach in Vermillion, move along to the next candidate is what I say. While USD law is not for everyone, it is rooted in the mission of educating South Dakota's future lawyers who will stay and practice law while making a home in this state. Sure there is space for out of state students to come and get an education and leave, but OUR focus should remain on educating the future leaders of OUR legal community and not catering to the future leaders of some other state. As an attorney I have talked with many folks in the legal community who are not pleased with how this whole thing has been handled. The USD football team has taken care of the ball well this year, but the University and the Law School fumbled this one miserably. Actually...not 'back on the board'. A regular reader of the forum told me about the comments and so I decided to take a look and respond. There has been no decision made to move the law school to Sioux Falls. I'm bothered by the fact that there's even a half-serious discussion going on about such a move. There have been recent issues about low bar passage rate but I think efforts are being made to address such issues and moving the law school, in my view, won't solve those issues. If people have any connection with those serving on the study committee, you may want to offer some reasoned arguments or opinions about leaving the law school in Vermillion. (How can we even dream about building or otherwise acquiring a facility in Sioux Falls to replace the current law school in Vermillion? ) I'm outa here!
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Post by yotefan on Oct 4, 2017 10:08:59 GMT -6
JackJD, good to have you back on the board. You are spot on about the law school. Moving from Vermillion to Sioux Falls under the notion of bringing in higher quality students and better faculty is misguided to say the least. Doing so for the sake of "providing more professional development opportunities" is equally misguided as those opportunities are and always will be available each summer not just in Sioux Falls, but across South Dakota. During the year, students should be too busy for an internship given the opportunities already available through boards like law review and moot court, grad assistantships, volunteer organizations, and joint degree programs. The law school has served SD well for over a hundred years in Vermillion and produced hundreds of fantastic attorneys during this time. There are only so many law schools in the country and if a student or professor doesn't wish to learn or teach in Vermillion, move along to the next candidate is what I say. While USD law is not for everyone, it is rooted in the mission of educating South Dakota's future lawyers who will stay and practice law while making a home in this state. Sure there is space for out of state students to come and get an education and leave, but OUR focus should remain on educating the future leaders of OUR legal community and not catering to the future leaders of some other state. As an attorney I have talked with many folks in the legal community who are not pleased with how this whole thing has been handled. The USD football team has taken care of the ball well this year, but the University and the Law School fumbled this one miserably. Is the Law School for sure leaving? I have heard there has been some considerable resistance and some really PO'd USD Law grads over this. Full disclosure, my wife is a USD Law grad. She is not, and I have not heard of any of her fellow grads, who are in support of moving the law school. No decision has been made at this time on moving the law school. Just in discussion phase for now. Apologies if this has already been answered after I stepped away from my desk.
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Post by formeryote on Oct 4, 2017 12:55:35 GMT -6
Define irony... At the bottom jackjd posts it says, "SDSU '76; USD Law '79"
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nccdays
Freshman Member
Once a Yote, Always a Yote
Posts: 4
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Post by nccdays on Oct 4, 2017 13:07:25 GMT -6
The problem is attracting professors to teach in the Law School. If you were a Law Professor, which community would atttract you? Sioux Falls or Vermillion?
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Post by yotefan on Oct 4, 2017 13:28:55 GMT -6
The problem is attracting professors to teach in the Law School. If you were a Law Professor, which community would atttract you? Sioux Falls or Vermillion? As I stated in my earlier post, USD law is not for everyone, but it has served our state and The University of South Dakota well for over 100 years. If you are a professor and don't like Vermillion, move along and apply elsewhere. There are plenty of qualified faculty candidates out there who have no issues with Vermillion. I know this for a fact as I sat on the faculty recruitment committee while in law school. Think of it from this standpoint, this is a fan-forum dedicated to D1 sports. There are only so many schools that offer athletes an opportunity to compete at such a high level. The same is true for teaching, in particular teaching at a law school. While there are many opportunities to teach all over the US, there are only so many law schools and only so many faculty openings each year. With such a finite number of opportunities, USD is in a position to be selective from both an athletic and an academic perspective. If a football recruit hates Vermillion, he's probably not going to be a good fit for the team. Further, if the football team underperforms, it doesn't mean we explore moving the football team to Sioux Falls. It means we get a new AD and a new set of coaches, invest in our facilities, and do better as alumni to support our Yotes. All of which have been done over the last 10-12 year by the way and is now paying off in all sports. Unfortunately this is the same logic being employed in the law school debate when what is really needed can be accomplished in Vermillion without the theatrics of moving the school to Sioux Falls. ps- interesting topic to chime in on for a first post
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Post by Yote 53 on Oct 4, 2017 13:35:37 GMT -6
The problem is attracting professors to teach in the Law School. If you were a Law Professor, which community would atttract you? Sioux Falls or Vermillion? Honest answer. I'd rather live in Vermillion than Sioux Falls. I have lived both places and Vermillion is a better place to live and raise a family. The town is about halfway between Sioux City and Sioux Falls, so entertainment options are readily available. I was in St. Louis last weekend, in St. Peter, MO, I was still 40 miles from St. Louis. I was in Chicago a few weeks back in Carol Stream, Chicago was still a good 35 miles away. I was in the Twin Cities a few weeks ago, from one end of the Cities to the other is over 50 miles, about the distance from Vermillion to Sioux Falls, and that is through heavily congested traffic. You catching my drift here? Major metro areas are huge. I've just always looked at that I live on the I-29 corridor in between two metro areas within an easily commutable distance. Driving I-29 to Sioux Falls is much, much, much and I cannot express how much easier drive than taking 494 from Maple Grove to Bloomington.
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Post by Yote 53 on Oct 4, 2017 13:41:53 GMT -6
The problem is attracting professors to teach in the Law School. If you were a Law Professor, which community would atttract you? Sioux Falls or Vermillion? As I stated in my earlier post, USD law is not for everyone, but it has served our state and The University of South Dakota well for over 100 years. If you are a professor and don't like Vermillion, move along and apply elsewhere. There are plenty of qualified faculty candidates out there who have no issues with Vermillion. I know this for a fact as I sat on the faculty recruitment committee while in law school. Think of it from this standpoint, this is a fan-forum dedicated to D1 sports. There are only so many schools that offer athletes an opportunity to compete at such a high level. The same is true for teaching, in particular teaching at a law school. While there are many opportunities to teach all over the US, there are only so many law schools and only so many faculty openings each year. With such a finite number of opportunities, USD is in a position to be selective from both an athletic and an academic perspective. If a football recruit hates Vermillion, he's probably not going to be a good fit for the team. Further, if the football team underperforms, it doesn't mean we explore moving the football team to Sioux Falls. It means we get a new AD and a new set of coaches, invest in our facilities, and do better as alumni to support our Yotes. All of which have been done over the last 10-12 year by the way and is now paying off in all sports. Unfortunately this is the same logic being employed in the law school debate when what is really needed can be accomplished in Vermillion without the theatrics of moving the school to Sioux Falls. ps- interesting topic to chime in on for a first post What the discussion should center around is a complete renovation or replacement of the Law School building. It has aged out and has served its purpose. Time for an upgrade. Time to put some resources into the Law School in Vermillion. Speaking of new buildings, another thing to consider is what impact moving the Law School will have on the School of Business that is right next door. The two schools go hand in hand with the joint MBA/JD program that is offered, which will probably grow in importance over time.
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jackjd
Senior Member
Posts: 653
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Post by jackjd on Oct 4, 2017 16:12:28 GMT -6
Define irony... At the bottom jackjd posts it says, "SDSU '76; USD Law '79" Where's the irony? I received a great education at SDSU and a great education at the South Dakota School of Law. So? You need to reread my posts to see that I am very supportive of the Law School and think it should remain in Vermillion. I agree with Yote53's post immediately above.
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