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Post by yotemeal on Nov 25, 2014 9:58:11 GMT -6
Goyotes nailed it when he offered "changes are needed, if nothing else, for the sake of change." I don't feel particularly comfortable signing on to a message board and calling for someone's paycheck, but the cold reality of Division-I coaching is that the paramount performance metrics are so transparent. Job responsibilities: win. That's obviously not happening, and the manner in which we're losing signals unsettling regression.
Joe Glenn is a tremendous asset and advocate for our university. I want his energy around our programs. That said, our athletics administration has a duty to keep an eye toward the future. Frankly, I struggle to envision a scenario in which we recruit our next head coach to come in "under" Coach Glenn. I think the next chapter begins when Joe decides to step aside. USD's next head coach needs full discretion to populate his staff.
I agree 100 percent that the football program requires better resources and facilities, but I reject the notion that those challenges excuse our lack of success. Underdogs emerge through dynamic leadership, hunger and creativity. This is not a welding job; this is a D-I head coaching job. There is no labor shortage. Let's tap into the innovation pool. Let's not look for USD's next head coach; let's look for Bowling Green's next head coach.
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Post by canislatrans on Nov 25, 2014 10:11:41 GMT -6
You're wrong. At this level it's basketball. That might be the norm nationally, but not here. The football programs, though FCS, are the ones with the biggest spotlight in SD Football could and should lead in my opinion. The Yotes draw 50,000 per year in FB (will expand if you develop the Dome), it takes a lot of BB games to do that (even with 2 programs and twice as many home games). Plus FB is an event each gameday, that's why I'm hoping that the Arena, is as much to free the Dome to focus on FB as it is to upgrade the BB experience. |
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Post by yote14 on Nov 25, 2014 10:15:01 GMT -6
That might be the norm nationally, but not here. The football programs, though FCS, are the ones with the biggest spotlight in SD Football could and should lead in my opinion. The Yotes draw 50,000 per year in FB (will expand if you develop the Dome), it takes a lot of BB games to do that (even with 2 programs and twice as many home games). Plus FB is an event each gameday, that's why I'm hoping that the Arena, is as much to free the Dome to focus on FB as it is to upgrade the BB experience. This is a very valid point. The 5 or 6 home football games usually have the same revenue as all of the mens and womens basketball games combined. The administration should ask the b-school where the biggest opportunity to create revenue would be and they're going to say football over bball all day long. |
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Post by Cousin Eddie on Nov 25, 2014 10:30:10 GMT -6
That might be the norm nationally, but not here. The football programs, though FCS, are the ones with the biggest spotlight in SD Football could and should lead in my opinion. The Yotes draw 50,000 per year in FB (will expand if you develop the Dome), it takes a lot of BB games to do that (even with 2 programs and twice as many home games). Plus FB is an event each gameday, that's why I'm hoping that the Arena, is as much to free the Dome to focus on FB as it is to upgrade the BB experience. I tend to agree, but I am intrigued by this discussion. We have 13 true home games in Vermillion this year. In the future, with the arena, it is probably reasonable to assume that we could have as many as 15-17. What is a reasonable average attendance to expect with a team that is consistantly winning and competing for the conference? According to this: www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/big-ten-breaks-own-record-men%E2%80%99s-basketball-attendance Northern State averaged 3300; Augie averaged 2600. According to this: colleges.niche.com/south-dakota-state-university/rankings/?highlight=best-athletics SDSU averaged 3600. Based on numbers from Wikipedia, that seems high, but whatever. Assuming an average attendance of 3000, which I think it light, that is 45,000 over 15 games. At 3600 over 15 games, that is 54,000. In a new stadium with an average of 4000, that is 60,000. That is just the men's team. At the end of the day, one of the most compelling reasons that I heard for moving to D1 had nothing to do with being an FCS football team, it was entirely about getting into the NCAA MBB Tournament and having your name listed on over a billion brackets. Also, being on true national TV in front of the best basketball television ratings of the year. At FBS, it is definitely football, but in FCS I can see both sides to the argument and might give the edge to MBB. Now, the budget for football is DEFINITELY one sided toward football, but I don't know that the return on investment is the same. (Ephasis on "I don't know...") |
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Post by Yote 53 on Nov 25, 2014 10:55:53 GMT -6
I agree with all of those statements, but the bottom line is that football rules colleges. For USD to be relavent in the spotlight is to be a contender in football. Some may disagree with that but we have to be good at football. Steps need to be made accordingly. I just am not sure that retaining everyone without expanding to a certain extend is the answer. It sounds like it's prolonging the problem. You're wrong. At this level it's basketball. Because College Gameday has gone to Fargo twice to spotlight their stellar basketball program. Yeah right. People still talk about App State beating Michigan. College football, even at the FCS level, rules the roost. |
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Post by Yote 53 on Nov 25, 2014 11:07:00 GMT -6
Football could and should lead in my opinion. The Yotes draw 50,000 per year in FB (will expand if you develop the Dome), it takes a lot of BB games to do that (even with 2 programs and twice as many home games). Plus FB is an event each gameday, that's why I'm hoping that the Arena, is as much to free the Dome to focus on FB as it is to upgrade the BB experience. I tend to agree, but I am intrigued by this discussion. We have 13 true home games in Vermillion this year. In the future, with the arena, it is probably reasonable to assume that we could have as many as 15-17. What is a reasonable average attendance to expect with a team that is consistantly winning and competing for the conference? According to this: www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/big-ten-breaks-own-record-men%E2%80%99s-basketball-attendance Northern State averaged 3300; Augie averaged 2600. According to this: colleges.niche.com/south-dakota-state-university/rankings/?highlight=best-athletics SDSU averaged 3600. Based on numbers from Wikipedia, that seems high, but whatever. Assuming an average attendance of 3000, which I think it light, that is 45,000 over 15 games. At 3600 over 15 games, that is 54,000. In a new stadium with an average of 4000, that is 60,000. That is just the men's team. At the end of the day, one of the most compelling reasons that I heard for moving to D1 had nothing to do with being an FCS football team, it was entirely about getting into the NCAA MBB Tournament and having your name listed on over a billion brackets. Also, being on true national TV in front of the best basketball television ratings of the year. At FBS, it is definitely football, but in FCS I can see both sides to the argument and might give the edge to MBB. Now, the budget for football is DEFINITELY one sided toward football, but I don't know that the return on investment is the same. (Ephasis on "I don't know...") To expand on my previous post and tag on to Cousin Eddie's. The NCAA basketball tournament does get your name on every bracket in the country but that exposure is fleeting. Does anybody remember all the mid major tournament teams from last year? Nope. Bunch of hypenated schools and small colleges that I've never heard of and won't remember. Sure, NDSU can get some run for a couple of days for winning a game in the tournament but ask anybody in the country what they know about NDSU and they will respond football. Same goes for Montana and App State (even though they are FBS now). To get some run in basketball you have to go to the Dance consistently, every year, and win games. Gonazaga and Butler come to mind. Can USD do that? Maybe. Until they do, the best opportunity for exposure across the midwest region and nationally is through football. |
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Post by canislatrans on Nov 25, 2014 11:12:52 GMT -6
Cuz, thanks for the research with the numbers, as you can see I was doing 'short hand' math. Part of my thinking was increasing the seating for FB, which from my understanding most FCS teams are shooting for 15k minimum seating. (Did I hear SDSU's new facility will top 20k ??). Then it would likely take both BB programs hitting the 3,600 - 4,000 per game to top FB.
I don't have a problem with the BB Arena, it makes the most sense due to our existing facilities, and it also makes good sense, as you've stated clearly. I just think that FB has a unique offering that draws a lot more people to a single event, which has its own benefits. In the end, they are both going to serve each other in increasing the USD brand, and hopefully recruiting reach.
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Post by golfingyote on Nov 25, 2014 11:33:34 GMT -6
I think the basketball vs football argument depends on a lot of factors-history, location, current success and so on. I think basketball in this area is starting to creep up on football for a variety of reasons. NDSU has a vice grip on our conference and as the dominant football presence in this area at the FCS level. Also, I think this region is starting to form a little "basketball belt" along I-29. Creighton and Wichita State have garnered lots of excitement in basketball as of late in this part of the country, and with the summit league tourney in a new arena this year, the excitement surrounding it, as well as the sure to be record crowds, could make this argument more interesting. Our league is quietly establishing itself as one of the better mid major conferences and the sucess of SDSU and NDSU in the tourney has helped create the buzz. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by yote14 on Nov 25, 2014 11:34:34 GMT -6
There is def some room to make a lot more money in BBall and you bring up some great numbers yote53. but a best case senerio in BBall puts us about even in the number of ticket sales now with how bad football has been. And football tickets cost more money than BBall.
I do think there is going to be a significant spike in BBall attendance once the arena is finished regardless of how good we are. (20% or more) If the ladies keep playing like they are and the men can find it we could see some attendance numbers we have not seen in a long time for BBall.
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Post by Cousin Eddie on Nov 25, 2014 11:38:51 GMT -6
(I think this is a great conversation) yote 53 I do get your point, but I also think that there is a slide scale of materiality + frequency to take into account. NDSU is an outlier. What they have achieved is unprecedented and unrealistic to expect. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is highly unlikely. The odds of getting into the Big Dance are far more likely and can also be achieved by expending far fewer resources. I would argue that the exposure that NDSU got by beating OU in the NCAA basketball tourney last year was singularity more nationally relevant than any FCS team winning a single FCS championship. Now, I don't necessarily think that the impact from that on the school as a whole is equal, however. I guess what I am saying is that it is more realistic to believe that we can become a regular NCAA Tournament team, in my opinion, than to believe that we can build what NDSU has presently. I mean, only one team has EVER won bask-to-back-to-back championships. At the end of the day, all I want to see is USD be regularly competitive in MBB and FB. I want to see us in the FCS Playoffs and in the NCAA Tournament at least 1-2 times once per decade and be on the cusp thereof regularly. |
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Post by sdyotefan on Nov 25, 2014 12:08:06 GMT -6
I have no problem with Joe being head coach for another year. Would like to see some assistants change and in my mind defense first. There was little if any improvement on D during the season and way too many big yardage plays given up all season and certainly no improvement against state. How can you not cover Zenner everywhere on the field and not have a defender within 20 yds of him on his wheel route out of the backfield that went for a 53 yd td? Later his backup ran the same route was again wide open for 40 yds. State had 1 qb sack and 6 or 7 hurries and we had none. When Joe decides to retire I'd like to see him be appointed Director of FB recruiting if he'd want to do it and give him some staff and money.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 22:48:35 GMT -6
You're wrong. At this level it's basketball. That might be the norm nationally, but not here. The football programs, though FCS, are the ones with the biggest spotlight in SD I disagree, but that's ok. I just feel the Summit tournament is so far above FCS football. Just my opinion. I think you'll feel differently when you see Craig Smith lead them to the NCAAs. |
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Post by Yote 53 on Nov 26, 2014 8:36:46 GMT -6
It depends, are you a football guy or a basketball guy? Every school has those who gravitate towards one or the other.
As far as I am concerned the NCAA football playoffs dwarfs the Summit League tournament. Much, much bigger achievement to make the football playoffs and even bigger to advance.
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Post by yotemeal on Nov 26, 2014 10:41:17 GMT -6
I'll drift. Cousin Eddie offers a good analysis. NDSU football is exceptional. Certainly an outlier. I think there are really two ways to make a national splash at the FCS level. 1) David vs. Goliath, e.g., App St. @ Michigan; and 2) Create a dynasty with a large, passionate fan base that can draw the likes of College Game Day, i.e., NDSU. The former is incredibly difficult and the latter is probably once in a lifetime.
Obviously, we all have subjective views on prestige. But I think objective measures such as TV ratings would indicate a Big Dance berth is head and shoulders above an FCS playoff run. I haven't bothered to research the numbers, but my assumption is that the FCS National Championship game draws about as many viewers as your garden variety Thursday-night MAC game. On the other hand, the Big Dance offers invaluable "bracket branding" and is must-see TV, drawing huge numbers. I'm reminded of the old Mountain Dew "under the cap" promotion during March Madness. I learned the names of a whole lot of "obscure" universities based solely on their inclusion in the NCAA Tournament. It's truly a spectacle.
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Post by Cousin Eddie on Nov 30, 2014 21:31:47 GMT -6
Interesting development, Joe's former DC Mike Breske was just let go from Washington State. Also OLB coach Paul Volero.
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