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Post by aldewitt on Jul 6, 2018 12:15:01 GMT -6
I'm not so sure about UND. With an option available like the Summit non scholarship football league they might bite. They wanted to stay D2 with D1 hockey and tried hard to lead the NCC in that direction. In the end they couldn't stand the idea of the Big 3 moving up and leaving them behind. They filed for transition on the last day.
They have been struggling both financially and on the field ever since moving up. A lot of it has to do with the ralph. That arena gift is going to be paid for by them over the 30 years through rents paid and ticket revenues collected including 50% of football ticket revenues. In addition the Englestad overloards claim the concessions and the parking and a management fee. The $ pinch could be with them into the future.
Moving to the MVFC will help them financially but in the MVFC football is an expensive sport to stay competitive in with all the perks of many FBS schools. They do have their pride though and besides, Summit non scholarship football is a non starter. After looking at the Northern Sun I just don't see the number of realistic potential members needed.
You make a good argument about the future of the Dakotas in the Summit. On the other hand who are these other potential members? I think Augi is the only school to even have been mentioned as being interested. Several others on the conferences easterly fringes are regularly mentioned as wanting out. If we are looking at realistic prospects, not pure speculation, Augi is it.
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 6, 2018 13:37:23 GMT -6
UMKC is also a realistic option to come back.
You really think UND would go FCS non-scholarship? No way. Pride will not let them. I know NDSU fans like to throw barbs at UND but let's admit a few things. UND has resources. UND is a historically strong football program. The Ralph is an asset, not a liability like you are spinning it. UND can renegotiate the contract with REA, and a lot of the rumblings you hear out of GF about that now is the first salvo in those future negotiations. The REA and UND will work things out.
UND will be strong future members of both the Summit and MVFC. Now, they are going to be in for a huge eye opening, especially in the MVFC, because I expect them to get slaughtered here the first few years, but in the long run they will be solid additions to both conferences.
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Post by kiyoat on Jul 6, 2018 14:13:56 GMT -6
I think you are both right. UND will be fine, long term. And Augie will be beneficial to the conference, long term. Both programs have support and vision. And both programs help our bottom lines in terms of fan interest, fan travel, and school travel budget. Also, it is looking like both will happen anyway, so... Kelby says:
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 6, 2018 14:40:26 GMT -6
UND is not historically a strong football program in D1. I would admit they were "The Augi" of the Big Sky even winning the weak side with a weak schedule once. So yes they are competitive but not strong.
Let me clairify a bit, I didn't say the Ralph was a liability rather it wasn't a gift. I said they were paying for it and it is taking resources out of the athletic budgets including ticket revenues. I had read the negotiation with the ralph was complete and nothing material changed. I really dont know.
Playing non scholarship football in the Summit certainly wouldnt take UND out of the running of a strong conference program. They would still be in the Summit and they would still be competing with the The Dakota Big 3. After all isnt Davis a non scholarship?
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 6, 2018 14:48:54 GMT -6
The ticket revenue pays for the REA operating budget, that's not the same as paying for the building. UND doesn't have their own department that handles ticketing, etc. because it would be redundant to what the REA already does. Basically, it is outsourced to REA.
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 7, 2018 3:45:32 GMT -6
Look at the structure of the deal and you will have to admit UND is going to pay dearly for that building. It’s not an independent neutral group receiving all the revnues. It is Englestad. Don’t forget Englestad deducts the value of the building as well transferring that value to Englestad from the rest of the tax base.
UND got a building. Englestad got all the money. That money is straining the UND athletic budget. With UC Davis non scholarship UND could be a candidate as well Why not? I don’t think it would happen without a Summit non scholarship league but yes I think UND is a candidate for non scholarship football.
A Summit non scholarship league only becomes possible with D2 move ups. There are 1 or 2 other MVFC schools that might like non scholarship football in the Summit too. The Northern Sun hockey members have potential to join improving the non revenue sports for Summit members and creating a less expensive football alternative. This could also open the way for the stronger MVFC schools to think about a future move to FBS.
UMK is a possibility.. The Summit could use them too even though Augie probably has more resources. After that what do you have to insure the future of the Summit? Our region needs viable sports conferences for schools ready to move. Most of those schools are going to be our old D2 pals. We simply aren’t welcome anyplace else. Being the largest universities in the region The Dakota Big 3 need to nurture and guide the growth assuring future members success. It’s how we will build our region over the next 50 yrs.
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Post by hokieman on Jul 7, 2018 16:18:11 GMT -6
Look at the structure of the deal and you will have to admit UND is going to pay dearly for that building. It’s not an independent neutral group receiving all the revnues. It is Englestad. Don’t forget Englestad deducts the value of the building as well transferring that value to Englestad from the rest of the tax base. UND got a building. Englestad got all the money. That money is straining the UND athletic budget. With UC Davis non scholarship UND could be a candidate as well Why not? I don’t think it would happen without a Summit non scholarship league but yes I think UND is a candidate for non scholarship football. A Summit non scholarship league only becomes possible with D2 move ups. There are 1 or 2 other MVFC schools that might like non scholarship football in the Summit too. The Northern Sun hockey members have potential to join improving the non revenue sports for Summit members and creating a less expensive football alternative. This could also open the way for the stronger MVFC schools to think about a future move to FBS. UMK is a possibility.. The Summit could use them too even though Augie probably has more resources. After that what do you have to insure the future of the Summit? Our region needs viable sports conferences for schools ready to move. Most of those schools are going to be our old D2 pals. We simply aren’t welcome anyplace else. Being the largest universities in the region The Dakota Big 3 need to nurture and guide the growth assuring future members success. It’s how we will build our region over the next 50 yrs. I think this is what gets lost in this whole discussion about Summit League expansion. Barring a seismic realignment at the top of Division I that would trickle down to the mid-majors, there simply is no other conference that would consider the Dakota schools as a member. Not a slight; just the truth. Think of the three nearest conferences: Big Sky, Horizon and Missouri valley. The Big Sky's Dakota experiment is over, and the Horizon and Missouri Valley are too far east -- and focusing their attention in that direction. (Green Bay is the westernmost member of the Horizon, quite a ways from the Dakota border, and the MVC has its eyes on schools south and east of its current members (Murray State and Belmont, if it ever expands). With the exception of a possible return of UMKC (which would be a logical move), the only way the Summit is going to expand is through D2 move-ups. I think Augie makes as much sense as any school in the region, as long as it is prepared to make the financial commitment. Augie vs. USD or SDSU basketball games in Sioux Falls might end up being the best-attended regular season games in the Summit.
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Post by easmus on Jul 7, 2018 20:33:20 GMT -6
Herbie, is that you?
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Post by aldewitt on Jul 8, 2018 7:56:28 GMT -6
A conference only needs 6 teams to sponsor FCS football. The Big South is an example, The Patriot and Northeast each have 7. Possible Summit non scholarshlp football league: UND Augi UMD ISUb St. Cloud Mankato UND would be the big dog with Augi and UMD giving them all they could handle. I don't see this happening anytime soon but there has been a lot of talk about Summit Football. If the Summit is to fullfill its role as a move up sanctuary non-scholarship football would be the way to go. The MVFC would distill down to the teams that might seriously take the entire conference into the FBS. I dont see the survival of the Summit as solid as the MVFC unless the Summit finds some way to grow. It might also be the case that all the teams that have been through the Summit always had a better alternative down the road. For the current members that doesn't seem to be the case. The Summit may have found stability by boiling down to the teams that have no other choice.
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 9, 2018 7:36:46 GMT -6
The Summit has enough schools the way it is right now. Just add UMKC back to get to ten and offset a possible Ft. Wayne defection and be done with it. The key is that the Summit schools need to align their sports offerings, and that means USD and UND restarting their baseball programs. Yes, we are part of the instability problem. By simply starting a baseball program a lot of this Summit instability talk goes away since it stems from the Summit needing to offer so many sports to keep the basketball auto bid. If all of the Summit schools would just commit to offering the same core sports the Summit would be okay.
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Post by kiyoat on Jul 9, 2018 8:02:22 GMT -6
... By simply starting a baseball program a lot of this Summit instability talk goes away since it stems from the Summit needing to offer so many sports to keep the basketball auto bid. If all of the Summit schools would just commit to offering the same core sports the Summit would be okay. This is a valid strategy/idea, but it is far from simple. Due to Title IX USD would have to add another women's sport as well (plus the facilities and coaching staff). Division I baseball has a scholarship limit of 11.7, so here are a few NCAA-sponsored women's sports that have a similar number of scholarships: Field Hockey Gymnastics Lacrosse Rugby www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 9, 2018 8:12:40 GMT -6
Look at the structure of the deal and you will have to admit UND is going to pay dearly for that building. It’s not an independent neutral group receiving all the revnues. It is Englestad. Don’t forget Englestad deducts the value of the building as well transferring that value to Englestad from the rest of the tax base. UND got a building. Englestad got all the money. That money is straining the UND athletic budget. With UC Davis non scholarship UND could be a candidate as well Why not? I don’t think it would happen without a Summit non scholarship league but yes I think UND is a candidate for non scholarship football. A Summit non scholarship league only becomes possible with D2 move ups. There are 1 or 2 other MVFC schools that might like non scholarship football in the Summit too. The Northern Sun hockey members have potential to join improving the non revenue sports for Summit members and creating a less expensive football alternative. This could also open the way for the stronger MVFC schools to think about a future move to FBS. UMK is a possibility.. The Summit could use them too even though Augie probably has more resources. After that what do you have to insure the future of the Summit? Our region needs viable sports conferences for schools ready to move. Most of those schools are going to be our old D2 pals. We simply aren’t welcome anyplace else. Being the largest universities in the region The Dakota Big 3 need to nurture and guide the growth assuring future members success. It’s how we will build our region over the next 50 yrs. UC-Davis offers football scholarships. Do you mean U of San Diego? UND is not going the non-scholarship football route. I don't know why you keep bringing it up. The majority of donations to the AD by groups of grads at UND come from former football players. You cut scholarship football and you can expect those donations to dry up.
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Post by kiyoat on Jul 9, 2018 8:15:25 GMT -6
A conference only needs 6 teams to sponsor FCS football. The Big South is an example, The Patriot and Northeast each have 7. Possible Summit non scholarshlp football league: UNDAugi UMD ISUb St. Cloud Mankato DrakeNot a completely terrible idea. I'd lose UND and add Drake, though. They are a geographic outlier in the Pioneer. And UND will be just fine in the MVFC. Definitely better than ISUb. Non-scholarship football isn't the end of the world. The Pioneer has had an auto-bid to the FCS playoff since 2013. San Diego has won their first-round game in each of the last two seasons. Summit non-scholarship football is an interesting thought.
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Post by Yote 53 on Jul 9, 2018 8:15:38 GMT -6
... By simply starting a baseball program a lot of this Summit instability talk goes away since it stems from the Summit needing to offer so many sports to keep the basketball auto bid. If all of the Summit schools would just commit to offering the same core sports the Summit would be okay. This is a valid strategy/idea, but it is far from simple. Due to Title IX USD would have to add another women's sport as well (plus the facilities and coaching staff). Division I baseball has a scholarship limit of 11.7, so here are a few NCAA-sponsored women's sports that have a similar number of scholarships: Field Hockey Gymnastics Lacrosse Rugby www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.htmlIf the alternative is the Summit not having a MBB auto bid, what is the best choice? I would start women's lacrosse to offset the added baseball scholarships. Growing sport in the region, MSP is full of lacrosse recruits.
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Post by wrj on Jul 9, 2018 8:26:02 GMT -6
Possible Summit non scholarshlp football league: UNDAugi UMD ISUb St. Cloud Mankato DrakeNot a completely terrible idea. I'd lose UND and add Drake, though. They are a geographic outlier in the Pioneer. And UND will be just fine in the MVFC. Definitely better than ISUb. Non-scholarship football isn't the end of the world. The Pioneer has had an auto-bid to the FCS playoff since 2013. San Diego has won their first-round game in each of the last two seasons. Summit non-scholarship football is an interesting thought. If financial rumors are true, WIU might also be a candidate for this list. Although I have huge doubts that Summit non-scholarship football will ever happen.
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