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Post by fightsd on Nov 16, 2019 22:35:08 GMT -6
I know exactly where the program is at. The part I struggle with is your assessment of that. It seems like you are suggesting that filling a roster with mediocre SD kids is more important to growing the program than winning. And you're not convincing anyone that the reason the XDSUs currently have a better following than we do is because of the 'local' kids on the roster. It's because they've been the dominant teams in our immediate region for the better part of a decade. Period. Exactly, with kids from the area. Thanks for confirming my point. Go ahead and keep providing evidence that USD has failed in recruiting. I agree with you, they (XDSUs) have been dominant for over a decade. Let’s go ahead and blame it on another young team but the XDSUs have dominated the recruiting process throughout the Midwest and USD has struggled to keep up. Whether or not USD has succeeded in recruiting is another discussion. Recruiting success is not at all predicated by the percentage of your roster that is in-state. Program prestige in the eyes of in-state recruits can absolutely be judged by the amount of in-state kids on the roster. On that point, SDSU definitely has us beat there The majority of our roster is from within the immediate region. So IA, NE, MN, WI, SD, etc. SDSU has more SD kids than we do. Way to go for them I guess. As a whole student body, I'm sure they have a higher percentage of SD kids than we do. It's the farm school in a farming state. Big shocker there. Has anyone dug that deep into their roster yet? Are all these SD kids major contributors, or are the majority of them backups and special teams guys? I'm honestly curious and I have no idea. What I do know is that you're not going to win many ball games in D1 when you build your roster based on how many kids from the Sioux Falls area you have on it. The fact of the matter is, state is a more attractive place for in-state kids to play. Again, farm school in a farm state. Other factors definitely contribute. The biggest one being that they have had more success in football the last several years. But that success has not been because of the amount of in-state recruits they have. |
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Post by coyote70 on Nov 16, 2019 23:41:24 GMT -6
A lot of negativity here. I don't see how it gets us further down the road of righting the ship. If we must have something it is optimism. You have to FEEL that you can succeed, even if you don't. Try something and let failure stop you - you ain't gonna make the grade. As for the Yotes, well, we have to keep trying to win and not let failure stop us. Frankly, with our coaching situation that is the only practical choice.
To a great extent I think our "system" needs a major adjustment if not overhaul. Yes, we can win a few games a year against a couple of our lower level MVFC peers. However, we seem to be consistently incapable of beating whatever teams are at or near the top of the conference any given year. There is no magic bullet here but consistently losing absolutely demands that something must change. We need to develop an approach whereby we focus on competing with NDSUs, etc. and let the rest take care of themselves.
In regard to recruiting, if this means casting a wider recruiting net, then I'm all for it. My inclination is to focus on the OL and DL. I don't care where they're from. I remember way back when coach Joe Salem cast a wide net and started building a program with a lot of far-flung out of state players. Prior to that (with a SD quarterback even) we were doormats to nearly everybody. Those new recruits helped turn things around and the program began to challenge for the conference championship every year. After a few years Salem also installed a new system (wishbone) which resulted in much success.
I'm not on any bandwagon to get a new coach (at least yet) but I'm certainly wanting to challenge our coaching staff to change things up. I still FEEL we can succeed.
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Depth?
Nov 16, 2019 23:57:52 GMT -6
Post by dakotaboy on Nov 16, 2019 23:57:52 GMT -6
Exactly, with kids from the area. Thanks for confirming my point. Go ahead and keep providing evidence that USD has failed in recruiting. I agree with you, they (XDSUs) have been dominant for over a decade. Let’s go ahead and blame it on another young team but the XDSUs have dominated the recruiting process throughout the Midwest and USD has struggled to keep up. Whether or not USD has succeeded in recruiting is another discussion. Recruiting success is not at all predicated by the percentage of your roster that is in-state. Program prestige in the eyes of in-state recruits can absolutely be judged by the amount of in-state kids on the roster. On that point, SDSU definitely has us beat there The majority of our roster is from within the immediate region. So IA, NE, MN, WI, SD, etc. SDSU has more SD kids than we do. Way to go for them I guess. As a whole student body, I'm sure they have a higher percentage of SD kids than we do. It's the farm school in a farming state. Big shocker there. Has anyone dug that deep into their roster yet? Are all these SD kids major contributors, or are the majority of them backups and special teams guys? I'm honestly curious and I have no idea. What I do know is that you're not going to win many ball games in D1 when you build your roster based on how many kids from the Sioux Falls area you have on it. The fact of the matter is, state is a more attractive place for in-state kids to play. Again, farm school in a farm state. Other factors definitely contribute. The biggest one being that they have had more success in football the last several years. But that success has not been because of the amount of in-state recruits they have. Wow, just wow. You really do not know the Dakotas or the XDSU's. |
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Post by fightsd on Nov 17, 2019 4:50:24 GMT -6
Whether or not USD has succeeded in recruiting is another discussion. Recruiting success is not at all predicated by the percentage of your roster that is in-state. Program prestige in the eyes of in-state recruits can absolutely be judged by the amount of in-state kids on the roster. On that point, SDSU definitely has us beat there The majority of our roster is from within the immediate region. So IA, NE, MN, WI, SD, etc. SDSU has more SD kids than we do. Way to go for them I guess. As a whole student body, I'm sure they have a higher percentage of SD kids than we do. It's the farm school in a farming state. Big shocker there. Has anyone dug that deep into their roster yet? Are all these SD kids major contributors, or are the majority of them backups and special teams guys? I'm honestly curious and I have no idea. What I do know is that you're not going to win many ball games in D1 when you build your roster based on how many kids from the Sioux Falls area you have on it. The fact of the matter is, state is a more attractive place for in-state kids to play. Again, farm school in a farm state. Other factors definitely contribute. The biggest one being that they have had more success in football the last several years. But that success has not been because of the amount of in-state recruits they have. Wow, just wow. You really do not know the Dakotas or the XDSU's. Well obviously not as much as someone with the handle dakotaboy 🙄 lol 'Understanding the Dakotas' is yet another irrelevant topic. What I do understand is college football and what it takes to win in division 1. It doesn't matter where they're from, you put the best team you can on the field. Period. This whole discussion started because some guy is tired of seeing Kai Henry personal fouls. I'm also tired of that, btw. He wanted to see the local white running backs get more carries. The honest answer to that is, Kai Henry even with the personal fouls is going to net more offense than those other guys. An example of putting your best team on the field. I'm not saying that having some in-state kids on the roster doesn't pique local interest a little bit. But fan support and support for the program will only increase when the quality of the product on the field increases. Look at the Huskers. They understand college football down there. Every year they bring in 20 or so in-state kids. The VAST majority of them are walk ons. They recognize that the talent pool in NE is not deep enough to make it a top priority to dedicate a bunch of resources and scholarships to it. If one or two of those in-state kids ends up working out and becoming a contributor, great. But they're not counting on 'local' talent to build a winning team. Neither is either of the XDSUs. |
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 6:43:29 GMT -6
Post by gopheryote on Nov 17, 2019 6:43:29 GMT -6
3 quick thoughts:
- I feel like 'where the players come from' should be its own thread so that every conversation doesn't devolve into that single, narrow topic (kind of like the attendance thing used to).
- The idea that we either recruit more local kids or we don't is a false dichotomy. The Huskers local walk-ons is a good example - I would actively ask every MOP from the HS championships to join as walk-ons.
- There is a textbook case study of in-state vs. best players - just google the Gopher hockey story.
BONUS THOUGHT
As I've said before, if you want to end the XDSU's football run, all you have to do is get an FCS team in Minnesota. If SCSU or Mankato (or likely even St. Thomas) was in the MVFC, much of the talent that makes up the XDSU teams stays home, and the same thing will happen to them as happened to UNI.
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Nov 17, 2019 7:19:52 GMT -6
Post by Yotes on Nov 17, 2019 7:19:52 GMT -6
Exactly, with kids from the area. Thanks for confirming my point. Go ahead and keep providing evidence that USD has failed in recruiting. I agree with you, they (XDSUs) have been dominant for over a decade. Let’s go ahead and blame it on another young team but the XDSUs have dominated the recruiting process throughout the Midwest and USD has struggled to keep up. Whether or not USD has succeeded in recruiting is another discussion. Recruiting success is not at all predicated by the percentage of your roster that is in-state. Program prestige in the eyes of in-state recruits can absolutely be judged by the amount of in-state kids on the roster. On that point, SDSU definitely has us beat there The majority of our roster is from within the immediate region. So IA, NE, MN, WI, SD, etc. SDSU has more SD kids than we do. Way to go for them I guess. As a whole student body, I'm sure they have a higher percentage of SD kids than we do. It's the farm school in a farming state. Big shocker there. Has anyone dug that deep into their roster yet? Are all these SD kids major contributors, or are the majority of them backups and special teams guys? I'm honestly curious and I have no idea. What I do know is that you're not going to win many ball games in D1 when you build your roster based on how many kids from the Sioux Falls area you have on it. The fact of the matter is, state is a more attractive place for in-state kids to play. Again, farm school in a farm state. Other factors definitely contribute. The biggest one being that they have had more success in football the last several years. But that success has not been because of the amount of in-state recruits they have. I did this breakdown for all 4 Dakota schools about a month ago. Here is that post: Here is the breakdown of kids and where they are from, based on the depth charts from the latest game notes. I went with the depth chart instead of full roster because I'm most interested in impact players. The first number is total kids on the depth chart, second number is kids who are listed as a starter, then positions of those starters. I've also got the percentage that each state makes up each depth chart as sdsu has way more guys listed on theirs than everyone else (everyone has just the 22 starters though). SDSU 53 players listed on depth chart SD - 13/4 LT, LG, WR, DT 24.5% MN - 13/4 RT, TE, DE, FS 24.5% IL - 7/3 QB, CB, CB 13.2% NE - 6/5 C, WR, FB, DE, SS 11.3% IA - 4/4 RG, NT, LB, LB 7.5% FL - 4/1 WR 7.5% WI - 3/0 5.7% AR - 1/1 RB 1.9% AZ - 1/0 1.9% PA - 1/0 1.9% NDSU 43 players listed on depth chart MN - 16/10 LT, LG, RG, TE, QB, FB, WR, NG, CB, FS 37.2% ND - 8/4 C, RT, RB, LB 18.6% FL - 4/2 WR, CB 9.3% WI - 4/1 DE 9.3% MO - 3/1 LB 7.0% SD - 3/1 DE 7.0% CA - 2/1 LB 4.7% IL - 2/0 4.7% GA - 1/0 2.3% USD 44 players listed on depth chart IA - 10/7 QB, WR, TE, RG, RT, DE, LB 22.7% FL - 9/4 S, CB, LB, RB 20.4% KS - 5/1 CB 11.4% IL - 4/2 S, LG 9.1% CA - 3/2 WR, DT 6.8% NE - 3/2 DT, LB 6.8% MN - 3/2 LT, LB 6.8% WI - 2/1 C 4.5% SD - 2/0 4.5% MO - 2/0 4.5% CO - 1/0 2.3% UND 45 players listed on depth chart MN - 15/9 LT, C, RT, WR, WR, DT, LB, LB, LB 33.3% WI - 7/5 LG, DE, LB, CB, S 15.6% CO - 5/1 CB 11.1% CA - 5/2 QB, S 11.1% ND - 3/2 WR, RB 6.7% CANADA - 3/2 RG, DE 6.7% IL - 2/0 4.4% IN - 1/0 2.2% NE - 1/1 TE 2.2% SD - 1/0 2.2% MI - 1/0 2.2% NETHERLANDS - 1/0 2.2% |
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 7:27:07 GMT -6
Post by tjbison on Nov 17, 2019 7:27:07 GMT -6
BONUS THOUGHT As I've said before, if you want to end the XDSU's football run, all you have to do is get an FCS team in Minnesota. If SCSU or Mankato (or likely even St. Thomas) was in the MVFC, much of the talent that makes up the XDSU teams stays home, and the same thing will happen to them as happened to UNI. This is doubtful, NDSU has recruited MN with great success since the 60's against all the DII teams clamoring for the same recruits a start up DI will not completely out recruit an established team just because of location. |
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Post by Yotes on Nov 17, 2019 7:40:29 GMT -6
Whether or not USD has succeeded in recruiting is another discussion. Recruiting success is not at all predicated by the percentage of your roster that is in-state. Program prestige in the eyes of in-state recruits can absolutely be judged by the amount of in-state kids on the roster. On that point, SDSU definitely has us beat there The majority of our roster is from within the immediate region. So IA, NE, MN, WI, SD, etc. SDSU has more SD kids than we do. Way to go for them I guess. As a whole student body, I'm sure they have a higher percentage of SD kids than we do. It's the farm school in a farming state. Big shocker there. Has anyone dug that deep into their roster yet? Are all these SD kids major contributors, or are the majority of them backups and special teams guys? I'm honestly curious and I have no idea. What I do know is that you're not going to win many ball games in D1 when you build your roster based on how many kids from the Sioux Falls area you have on it. The fact of the matter is, state is a more attractive place for in-state kids to play. Again, farm school in a farm state. Other factors definitely contribute. The biggest one being that they have had more success in football the last several years. But that success has not been because of the amount of in-state recruits they have. Wow, just wow. You really do not know the Dakotas or the XDSU's. I can't believe you take issue with the "Farm school in a farm state" comment. There are pastures on campus, there are constant ag themed events, the university does its best to give any gameday experience a country feel, and a ton of students/fans love and embrace that. I come from a rural background and did some college recruiting in lots of high schools where the graduating class was 10-20 kids (albeit in Iowa). A common theme I found amongst those high schoolers was that they wanted to study "Ag" so they were going to Iowa State. They had zero specifics on what they actually wanted to study in agriculture, but it was clear that the most important factor was going to the school that felt most aligned with their country themed lifestyle. Individuals with a rural background tend to be very proud of it, to the point where they often refuse to know anything other than that. This absolutely plays into sdsu's favor as USD is not the school embracing anything "country". Farm school in a farm state is a very real thing that will always be a leg up for them when it comes to competing for in-state kids. |
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 9:39:32 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by sdyotefan on Nov 17, 2019 9:39:32 GMT -6
FL and TX are the top 2 high school states producing college recruits. Obviously we've been in FL which is great! I say we try to get a few TX kids too!
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 9:50:50 GMT -6
Post by dakotaboy on Nov 17, 2019 9:50:50 GMT -6
Wow, just wow. You really do not know the Dakotas or the XDSU's. I can't believe you take issue with the "Farm school in a farm state" comment. There are pastures on campus, there are constant ag themed events, the university does its best to give any gameday experience a country feel, and a ton of students/fans love and embrace that. I come from a rural background and did some college recruiting in lots of high schools where the graduating class was 10-20 kids (albeit in Iowa). A common theme I found amongst those high schoolers was that they wanted to study "Ag" so they were going to Iowa State. They had zero specifics on what they actually wanted to study in agriculture, but it was clear that the most important factor was going to the school that felt most aligned with their country themed lifestyle. Individuals with a rural background tend to be very proud of it, to the point where they often refuse to know anything other than that. This absolutely plays into sdsu's favor as USD is not the school embracing anything "country". Farm school in a farm state is a very real thing that will always be a leg up for them when it comes to competing for in-state kids. Calling the XDSU's (or Iowa State) farm schools is like calling USD a teachers college. It just isn't true. The ag related programs are important (and a point of pride for those schools), but are only a small portion of the overall mission. Many of the in state students have an ag background, just as at USD. Most though come from the larger towns and cities, just as at USD. The same is true of the local players attending all of these schools. The advantage the XDSU's have recruiting is in the quality of the program. Give an athlete a choice between a program that competes every year for championships and one that is at best mid-pack, he or she will likely pick the opportunity for the championship. Winning brings the more talented local kids to the program. Winning also brings the fans, whether the players are local or not. USD needs to keep recruiting the best student talent available from where ever. |
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foxyd
Freshman Member
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 12:47:45 GMT -6
Post by foxyd on Nov 17, 2019 12:47:45 GMT -6
Calling the XDSU's (or Iowa State) farm schools is like calling USD a teachers college. It just isn't true. The ag related programs are important (and a point of pride for those schools), but are only a small portion of the overall mission. Many of the in state students have an ag background, just as at USD. Most though come from the larger towns and cities, just as at USD. The same is true of the local players attending all of these schools. The advantage the XDSU's have recruiting is in the quality of the program. Give an athlete a choice between a program that competes every year for championships and one that is at best mid-pack, he or she will likely pick the opportunity for the championship. Winning brings the more talented local kids to the program. Winning also brings the fans, whether the players are local or not. USD needs to keep recruiting the best student talent available from where ever. I think dakotaboys statements above are not arguable. The members of this board (and there are at least a few) who persist in teasing SDSU about its connection with farming and ag are dinosaurs. Ignoring the importance of food production is stupid. I have tried to find information on the various majors of SDSU football players...hard to find that information in just a few minutes' research; but, what information I could find shows are remarkably high number of hard-science majors with perhaps engineering leading the way. Every year there are Pharmacy majors, pre-med etc. Rather than take sideways shots at the XDSUs, the point made in the second paragraph in dakotaboy's post should be the focus. The Yotes have a serious problem with its defense. I think the writing on the wall is clear: we've had a little experiment with defense this year and it failed miserably. Time to try something else. Coach Nielsen turned around a Western Illinois program that was in tougher shape than the Yotes. He can do it again. |
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 13:42:24 GMT -6
Post by coyotecrazie5 on Nov 17, 2019 13:42:24 GMT -6
I can relate from both sides of the coin here. USD is a business school with the best graduate programs in the state, SDSU is an ag school with good nursing and pharmacy. I know so many farmers with history or geography degrees from state and didn't take school seriously to count. They knew they would go back home and be able to farm the family land and be set. Some do take it seriously and get an agronomy degree, but is the degree even worth anything in that case? Why not start working on the farm right after high school or get a tech degree in that case? They will learn from first hand experience quicker being on the farm right away and will have more money to help with buying land or cash flow. There is no competing against anyone for your job, I have never understood it.
In regards to the recruiting posts, I agree that a team should win with whoever the best player is no matter where he is from, to a certain degree. I also agree that USD needs to recruit and roster more SD players each year. There should be at LEAST 10+ SD kids on the team each season. Knowing some about the local recruiting USD has not even tried to recruit many of the top local kids that end up at state. It has been that way for at least back to the D1 move. They need to offer more PWO to local kids or partial scholarships to match state. Having SD kids builds the local support, which is important whether SD hardly has any people or not. The problem USD has no discipline and is lacking team cohesiveness. Yotes have way too many personal fouls and penalties in clutch situations. Good teams simply don't do that. The coaches seem to let it slide and that sets the tone for the entire team. The coaches have let a few go that aren't the best team players this year, but need to reel in the me first attitude. I believe getting more SD players will help that as well. If there is a borderline recruit far away versus a slightly undersized local recruit with slightly less potential, the staff needs to pick the local kid. If you look at some of the best players at SD schools, many of them are walk ons or undersized. Look at the local kids that are walkons such as Goedert, Greenfield, Jonke, Falck, ect. Keeping a kid that is undersized, but a hard worker is much more valuable than getting a stud kid about himself that will leave at mid season or in 1 year. You also can't compare us to Nebraska because they are playing on a much harder platform. Recruiting to beat NDSU and recruiting to beat Ohio St are two different animals.
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Post by Yotes on Nov 17, 2019 14:05:15 GMT -6
I can't believe you take issue with the "Farm school in a farm state" comment. There are pastures on campus, there are constant ag themed events, the university does its best to give any gameday experience a country feel, and a ton of students/fans love and embrace that. I come from a rural background and did some college recruiting in lots of high schools where the graduating class was 10-20 kids (albeit in Iowa). A common theme I found amongst those high schoolers was that they wanted to study "Ag" so they were going to Iowa State. They had zero specifics on what they actually wanted to study in agriculture, but it was clear that the most important factor was going to the school that felt most aligned with their country themed lifestyle. Individuals with a rural background tend to be very proud of it, to the point where they often refuse to know anything other than that. This absolutely plays into sdsu's favor as USD is not the school embracing anything "country". Farm school in a farm state is a very real thing that will always be a leg up for them when it comes to competing for in-state kids. Calling the XDSU's (or Iowa State) farm schools is like calling USD a teachers college. It just isn't true. The ag related programs are important (and a point of pride for those schools), but are only a small portion of the overall mission. Many of the in state students have an ag background, just as at USD. Most though come from the larger towns and cities, just as at USD. The same is true of the local players attending all of these schools. The advantage the XDSU's have recruiting is in the quality of the program. Give an athlete a choice between a program that competes every year for championships and one that is at best mid-pack, he or she will likely pick the opportunity for the championship. Winning brings the more talented local kids to the program. Winning also brings the fans, whether the players are local or not. USD needs to keep recruiting the best student talent available from where ever. My point isn't that those institutions are farm schools and nothing more, the ag programs make up a relatively small portion of the student body. My point is that those institutions appeal more to kids from rural backgrounds because it may feel more like home. I can't speak much for NDSU but I know sdsu embraces their roots as an agricultural college and it resonates with those who come from that sort of background much more than USD ever could. Being the "farm" school in a farm state is a very real advantage for them. Their undergrad enrollment wouldn't be 3,000 larger than USD's if kids were putting their program of study as top priority instead. I should mention that I'm referring to enrollment in general and not athletics. It is a factor in recruiting athletes but there are a litany of other factors at play there. |
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Post by easmus on Nov 17, 2019 15:08:13 GMT -6
I’m also not sure we recruit the state hard enough for general students to males to come to the business school. There are a lot of kids who go to SDSU to study business. We have an excellent B school, and should be marketing the heck out of it. In general, being a liberal arts school is hard in today’s world, but marketing the B school more would get rid of the perception you go to USD to become a doctor or lawyer and anything else is a worthless liberal arts degree.
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Depth?
Nov 17, 2019 15:26:00 GMT -6
Post by Yotes on Nov 17, 2019 15:26:00 GMT -6
I’m also not sure we recruit the state hard enough for general students to males to come to the business school. There are a lot of kids who go to SDSU to study business. We have an excellent B school, and should be marketing the heck out of it. In general, being a liberal arts school is hard in today’s world, but marketing the B school more would get rid of the perception you go to USD to become a doctor or lawyer and anything else is a worthless liberal arts degree. You might know this already, but something like 57% of all college students are female. USD has a greater disparity, what with the lack of the typical male-heavy technical programs, but men just aren't going to college at the same rate that they once did (not to mention that enrollment in general is down across the board). |
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