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Depth?
Oct 21, 2019 17:58:01 GMT -6
Post by gopheryote on Oct 21, 2019 17:58:01 GMT -6
I have kept some recent data myself and in 2016 we had 47 players join the team. Currently there are 20 players left and 3 have already graduated, Streveler, Brooks & Lewis. In 2017 we had 39 players join the team. There are 18 players left and 1 who graduated, Jennings. In 2018 we had 30 players join the team and currently 23 are still on the team. So what does this tell us about our depth? The USD coaching staff needed to bring in players and it looks like they took a lot of chances trying to find some diamonds in the rough. This means a lot of kids moved on as they either were not what the coaching staff was looking for or they found out that D1 football is more than they wanted. Each year we are bringing in less players which would tell me that our depth is improving. It is hard to compare with either XDSU team or other established teams with a history of success, because that success will bring in players all by itself. The process to build a winning program is difficult and hopefully we are getting closer each year. This is interesting stuff. It sounds like your take is that we are bringing in fewer, thus there must already be some depth there. Is your list able to determine how many peole came in and left 'on schedule' (graduation, injury retirement, ran out of eligibility, etc.) vs. leaving early/transferring somewhere else? |
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Depth?
Oct 21, 2019 18:36:09 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by easmus on Oct 21, 2019 18:36:09 GMT -6
It appeared we took some injuries last Saturday against UNI. I didn’t think Bianchi looked good at RT when he replaced Bianchi briefly to finish the 2nd. Jensen was out occasionally as well, with Wallace in for him. Peguero appeared to be hurt badly. I bring this up simply to say this isn’t year 1 for Bob. We need momentum and cannot fold again down the stretch. If there are freshman who are better than some other guys in the lines, I think we should play them if they’re our best chance to win. We need to win the next few games. Do that and beat SDSU you can finish 7-5. May not make the playoffs but it’s a winning season building momentum going into a newly renovated building. Replaced Erbes, Bianchi briefly replaced Erbes. |
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Depth?
Oct 22, 2019 4:44:30 GMT -6
Post by yotefbfan on Oct 22, 2019 4:44:30 GMT -6
I have kept some recent data myself and in 2016 we had 47 players join the team. Currently there are 20 players left and 3 have already graduated, Streveler, Brooks & Lewis. In 2017 we had 39 players join the team. There are 18 players left and 1 who graduated, Jennings. In 2018 we had 30 players join the team and currently 23 are still on the team. So what does this tell us about our depth? The USD coaching staff needed to bring in players and it looks like they took a lot of chances trying to find some diamonds in the rough. This means a lot of kids moved on as they either were not what the coaching staff was looking for or they found out that D1 football is more than they wanted. Each year we are bringing in less players which would tell me that our depth is improving. It is hard to compare with either XDSU team or other established teams with a history of success, because that success will bring in players all by itself. The process to build a winning program is difficult and hopefully we are getting closer each year. This is interesting stuff. It sounds like your take is that we are bringing in fewer, thus there must already be some depth there. Is your list able to determine how many peole came in and left 'on schedule' (graduation, injury retirement, ran out of eligibility, etc.) vs. leaving early/transferring somewhere else? Yes, my take is that since Coach Nielsen arrived he needed to bring in more players to help build the depth he wants. For 2019 he brought in another 31 players. It would appear that the fist two years of his tenure, the staff brought in many players that they were taking chances on hoping that they would work out. The last two years, as the roster has been getting deeper, they did not need to bring in that many players with that high risk/reward factor (Note: another factor is the amount of scholarships available each year). Now the question is how does this translate to wins on Saturdays? As far as the extensive information regarding why players left, my list is not that extensive, sorry, but that would be interesting to know. |
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Post by yoteolfan on Oct 22, 2019 7:05:29 GMT -6
The Gibbs situation is a good example of how the assistant coaches treat players - especially Walk Ons and PWOs. The word I hear from the players I talk to is that a WO or PWO at USD, is just a piece of meat. I cannot speak for all positions, but I do know that our OL coach has told many 1st and 2nd year players that he doesn't feel that they are good enough to play for him so they leave. Let's put this into perspective here. Are most High School Freshman or Sophomores ready to start Varsity? No Way - Only the freaks are and guess what - they usually end up playing for Power 5 schools. The rest need to develop physically and mentally over the course of their first 2-3 years. If the expectation of this coach is that all of his players will come into the program game ready - NO WONDER NDSU kicks our tails every year! NDSU takes the time to develop and mature their players by encouraging them to continue to grind it out, learn and get bigger and stronger. How many freshman start for NDSU or SDSU versus USD? Not many because of how they develop their players for the long run.And specifically to the Gibbs situation, I point out the highlighted. He's been in the program for 2 years. Developing physically and mentally happens on the scout team. Most 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd year players spend time on the scout team, growing, maturing, developing, and biding their time. On one hand there are people saying he didn't get his chance and should be getting a chance to play. On the other hand there are posts saying we need to develop players over 2-3 years and bring them through the system. So which is it? Where do you all think that development happens? Where do you think NDSU and SDSU develop their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players? On scout team. I think that you are missing my point. What I am saying is that I believe that several of our position coaches do not know how to develop players. Successful programs find a way to keep players motivated as they grind through the learning years. Players are encouraged and can clearly see their goals. It is a cultural mindset. Yes these are young men that need to be mentally strong enough to endure the grind, but you also need position coaches there, coaching them to get better and helping the players see what they can become, not what they are today. Go to a couple of practices, talk to some of our players and you will see and hear that we have coaches that aren't 100% bought into developing all of their players. I think that we can all agree that a first year player will not be the same player 3-4 years later. They will develop and get better. Yes, some will leave the team as they realize what a massive time commitment D1 football is, but we shouldn't be losing players because position coaches are not coaching them. Winning programs embrace ALL of their players and have a desire to make them all better. That is how you build a successful program. |
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Post by Yote 53 on Oct 22, 2019 8:18:13 GMT -6
I would be interested in finding out if that is really happening or if it just some players that are disgruntled because they are not "feeling the love". When you are down on the depth chart it takes self-motivation to claw your way up into a playing role. You don't always "feel the love".
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Post by fightsd on Oct 22, 2019 8:51:57 GMT -6
It is a weird situation going from the recruiting phase to showing up on campus. For the past year or more, all the coaches treat you like their best friend and tell you all the great things you'll do at their school and how awesome the whole situation is. You commit and they all jump around you and slap you on the back and get you all fired up and excited. Then you show up on campus and the mood has changed. Their goal is now winning football games, not getting you to come to their school. The coaches obviously saw something in you or you wouldn't be there in the first place, but now you're at the bottom of the totem pole. They have bigger things to worry about than if an underclassmen is 'feeling the love'. Some guys can handle that and others can't. Just need to put your time in and find your role on the team. I'm not going to retype it as it's listed up above, but if you don't like your role, you do have some options.
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Post by Yote 53 on Oct 22, 2019 9:05:08 GMT -6
That is very true. It's not that the coaches don't care, it's that priorities change and there is only so much time in the day (and allowed by the NCAA). It can be a tough adjustment for some players. Some are able to handle it better than others.
I will say, the best support system you can have is your fellow players in your position group. If it's a group that is supportive and takes young players under their wing and teaches them the ropes, reassuring them that this is the process and everything will work out, it goes a long ways towards making young players feel wanted. That also works both ways, if a freshman comes in thinking their sh!t doesn't stink it probably isn't going to be well received by the upperclassmen and that player will have a tough time.
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Post by nccyote on Oct 22, 2019 12:22:03 GMT -6
It is a weird situation going from the recruiting phase to showing up on campus. For the past year or more, all the coaches treat you like their best friend and tell you all the great things you'll do at their school and how awesome the whole situation is. You commit and they all jump around you and slap you on the back and get you all fired up and excited. Then you show up on campus and the mood has changed. Their goal is now winning football games, not getting you to come to their school. The coaches obviously saw something in you or you wouldn't be there in the first place, but now you're at the bottom of the totem pole. They have bigger things to worry about than if an underclassmen is 'feeling the love'. Some guys can handle that and others can't. Just need to put your time in and find your role on the team. I'm not going to retype it as it's listed up above, but if you don't like your role, you do have some options. Agree with this 100%. Development for players not in the line-up happens in the off-season, not typically during the season. During the season, the coaches need to focus on getting the guys who are going to play prepared. There isn't enough reps to go around to make sure the 3rd and 4th team guys feel "included" or love their role. That's part of being a team mate. For the guys that don't feel "the love", do something to earn that love then. I get tired of people bashing coaches because they "don't pay enough attention to everybody" That's a cop out and an excuse for someone that is either too naive to understand their talent or doesn't really want to be here. Do you think the XDSU's are giving equal reps to their 3rd and 4th team guys. If you do then you have your head buried in the sand. The difference is they don't have a bunch a guys that can't handle their roles as a special teams guy or a scout teamer until their opportunity comes. They understand the process, they don't quit as a sophomore and take their ball home because they didn't like their role. Go Yotes |
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Post by fightsd on Oct 22, 2019 13:09:02 GMT -6
It is a weird situation going from the recruiting phase to showing up on campus. For the past year or more, all the coaches treat you like their best friend and tell you all the great things you'll do at their school and how awesome the whole situation is. You commit and they all jump around you and slap you on the back and get you all fired up and excited. Then you show up on campus and the mood has changed. Their goal is now winning football games, not getting you to come to their school. The coaches obviously saw something in you or you wouldn't be there in the first place, but now you're at the bottom of the totem pole. They have bigger things to worry about than if an underclassmen is 'feeling the love'. Some guys can handle that and others can't. Just need to put your time in and find your role on the team. I'm not going to retype it as it's listed up above, but if you don't like your role, you do have some options. Agree with this 100%. Development for players not in the line-up happens in the off-season, not typically during the season. During the season, the coaches need to focus on getting the guys who are going to play prepared. There isn't enough reps to go around to make sure the 3rd and 4th team guys feel "included" or love their role. That's part of being a team mate. For the guys that don't feel "the love", do something to earn that love then. I get tired of people bashing coaches because they "don't pay enough attention to everybody" That's a cop out and an excuse for someone that is either too naive to understand their talent or doesn't really want to be here. Do you think the XDSU's are giving equal reps to their 3rd and 4th team guys. If you do then you have your head buried in the sand. The difference is they don't have a bunch a guys that can't handle their roles as a special teams guy or a scout teamer until their opportunity comes. They understand the process, they don't quit as a sophomore and take their ball home because they didn't like their role. Go Yotes Taking your ball and going home is a little harsher than I would put it, but it's 100% accurate. I have no hard feelings toward guys that quit. Doing it mid-season is just wrong since your teammates are counting on you, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make here. D1 football isn't for everybody. If it's not for you, that's your choice. But to NCCyote's point, we should be focusing on bringing in the guys that are willing to put their time in and make the team better. Not worrying about making sure every kid on the roster is having his bucket filled every day |
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Post by nccyote on Oct 22, 2019 13:38:28 GMT -6
I probably came off harsher than I intended, but maybe not. I don't have ill feeling towards players that quit either, that's unfortunately the way society is going these days. As a current coach and former player, the attitude toward not playing is completely different. When I was playing, my parents told me on the first day of fall camp when they dropped me off "If you quit, don't come home, your bed we will be taken". I know, typical old timer post, but its true in a lot of ways. Now days parents are unbelievable in the ways they enable their kids to quit and question coaching. Its not "keep working hard, your time will come" or "be a good team mate and the rest will take care of itself", its now "Play my kid or we're gone" or "These coaches only play the kids they like".
Timing is a big part of it, like FightSD mentioned. Quitting mid-season is just a bad look all around.
This isn't at all directed at the Gibbs kid. I don't know anything about him or his family. from all accounts he's a great kid and has a great family. I'm just a frustrated alumni having a hard time adjusting to the "me first" era of college athletics.
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Post by fightsd on Oct 22, 2019 14:22:03 GMT -6
I also think where you transfer to effects how it's perceived as well. When I was playing we had a few guys transfer do a lesser division. Morningside, Aggie, DWU, etc. That's perfectly fine with me. It's all a personal choice. If you want to be a superstar in D2 or NAIA for whatever reason, be my guest. I do have a big problem with the guys transferring to other D1 programs because of personal grudges, playing time, etc. The one that still rubs me the wrong way is Van Ginkel. Transfering out because you think you're too good for the program is wrong as well.
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Post by flagshipU on Oct 22, 2019 14:51:48 GMT -6
Does anyone know how they split scholarships these day? Obviously, not all of the "scholarship players" are on full rides. For those true walk-ons receiving no scholarship money, I would imagine that it would be deflating to devote 2-3 years of your time and effort and not receive any scholarship funds, especially knowing that you have the talent to play at another level. These kids can be truly valuable to the program via scout team contributions, etc. Some guys do blossom and earn playing time and scholarships - VanderEsch and Greenfield to name a couple. It is simply not realistic to expect all of the walk-on kids to stay around their entire 4-5 years. You just hope to build the winning culture that makes it attractive for the majority to want to do so despite the commitment and toll on the body.
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Post by yoteolfan on Oct 22, 2019 15:03:19 GMT -6
It is a weird situation going from the recruiting phase to showing up on campus. For the past year or more, all the coaches treat you like their best friend and tell you all the great things you'll do at their school and how awesome the whole situation is. You commit and they all jump around you and slap you on the back and get you all fired up and excited. Then you show up on campus and the mood has changed. Their goal is now winning football games, not getting you to come to their school. The coaches obviously saw something in you or you wouldn't be there in the first place, but now you're at the bottom of the totem pole. They have bigger things to worry about than if an underclassmen is 'feeling the love'. Some guys can handle that and others can't. Just need to put your time in and find your role on the team. I'm not going to retype it as it's listed up above, but if you don't like your role, you do have some options. Agree with this 100%. Development for players not in the line-up happens in the off-season, not typically during the season. During the season, the coaches need to focus on getting the guys who are going to play prepared. There isn't enough reps to go around to make sure the 3rd and 4th team guys feel "included" or love their role. That's part of being a team mate. For the guys that don't feel "the love", do something to earn that love then. I get tired of people bashing coaches because they "don't pay enough attention to everybody" That's a cop out and an excuse for someone that is either too naive to understand their talent or doesn't really want to be here. Do you think the XDSU's are giving equal reps to their 3rd and 4th team guys. If you do then you have your head buried in the sand. The difference is they don't have a bunch a guys that can't handle their roles as a special teams guy or a scout teamer until their opportunity comes. They understand the process, they don't quit as a sophomore and take their ball home because they didn't like their role. Go Yotes I never said that 3rd and 4th string players should get reps or equal reps. However, to again try to make my point, my questions to you are: 1. Why are the other XDSU's successful in keeping more players through their Senior years? (Remember this thread is about our lack of depth!) 2. If you work for a company and you are not happy - is it 100% your fault or is it the manager/leadership's fault? (Hint - 82% of people who leave companies do so because of their managers). All I am saying is that if some of the ACoaches took the time to speak with the 3rd string and below players on a regular basis - and this can be simply talking to them on the way to practice - and let them know what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong. it can go a long way in building a winning culture. Can you honestly say that you would love to work at a job where you receive NO feedback or only negative feedback for 4 months straight or more? Maybe your head is in the sand (or somewhere else) and you need to consider that either we suck at recruiting good players or some of our ACoaches aren't building a winning culture or maybe it is somewhere in between. Putting 100% of the blame on the players is some seriously flawed thinking. |
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Post by nccyote on Oct 23, 2019 9:39:22 GMT -6
Agree with this 100%. Development for players not in the line-up happens in the off-season, not typically during the season. During the season, the coaches need to focus on getting the guys who are going to play prepared. There isn't enough reps to go around to make sure the 3rd and 4th team guys feel "included" or love their role. That's part of being a team mate. For the guys that don't feel "the love", do something to earn that love then. I get tired of people bashing coaches because they "don't pay enough attention to everybody" That's a cop out and an excuse for someone that is either too naive to understand their talent or doesn't really want to be here. Do you think the XDSU's are giving equal reps to their 3rd and 4th team guys. If you do then you have your head buried in the sand. The difference is they don't have a bunch a guys that can't handle their roles as a special teams guy or a scout teamer until their opportunity comes. They understand the process, they don't quit as a sophomore and take their ball home because they didn't like their role. Go Yotes I never said that 3rd and 4th string players should get reps or equal reps. However, to again try to make my point, my questions to you are: 1. Why are the other XDSU's successful in keeping more players through their Senior years? (Remember this thread is about our lack of depth!) 2. If you work for a company and you are not happy - is it 100% your fault or is it the manager/leadership's fault? (Hint - 82% of people who leave companies do so because of their managers). All I am saying is that if some of the ACoaches took the time to speak with the 3rd string and below players on a regular basis - and this can be simply talking to them on the way to practice - and let them know what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong. it can go a long way in building a winning culture. Can you honestly say that you would love to work at a job where you receive NO feedback or only negative feedback for 4 months straight or more? Maybe your head is in the sand (or somewhere else) and you need to consider that either we suck at recruiting good players or some of our ACoaches aren't building a winning culture or maybe it is somewhere in between. Putting 100% of the blame on the players is some seriously flawed thinking. 1. This is easy...they win games, lots of them. When you are a constant presence in the top 5 of FCS, it's a lot easier for the younger guys to buy in and enjoy the ride IMO. Being a scout teamer, special teams guy, or just riding the pine on a national contender is easier to accept than doing so for a .500 ball club. Do you think everyone on the New England Patriots just feels loved everyday by their coaches, or do they understand that while they might be a little unhappy at times, they're going to win a lot of games and that overrides their personal feelings? 2. Apples to oranges if you ask me. I get what you're saying, but very few college football players ever go through their career as "the guy" for the entire time. Everyone has to grind. Everyone has days that they question "why". Hell I had a lot of them my first couple of years. It's unrealistic for people to expect to be the apple of their coaches eye everyday. However, if what you're saying is substantiated, that coaches are treating players poorly, then I agree its a big issue. I, for one, just don't really see that from this staff right now. I agree, this is not 100% on the players, however, it is a 2 way street. It's not just on the coaches either. Don't like your current position in the company, work harder. Do something to catch your boss' eye. Go above and beyond. Same applies on the football field. Now if you're giving it all you've got and it's just not good enough, by all means find a new profession, school, etc. But don't put all of the blame on the coaches or the company. If everyone in the program/company was saying that they don't feel like they are valued, that's a different story. If it's just the players leaving that are disgruntled, that might be the red herring. Any who...go Yotes |
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Depth?
Oct 23, 2019 14:51:34 GMT -6
Post by bobo on Oct 23, 2019 14:51:34 GMT -6
Many of the guys on the roster are on partial scholarships (some very significant players you would think deserve a Full). Sometimes at this level, the Full rides are used on kids that may not have the means or motivation to travel that far away from home to school. Hard to turn away from all of your school being paid for!! I know for a fact that 2 of our best WRs and our best LB are on very partial scholarships. Many programs also reserve the big $ for certain positions (QB, OL, DL) because they know you win in the trenches and you better have a dude at QB.
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