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UNO
Mar 13, 2011 16:06:08 GMT -6
Post by jackl on Mar 13, 2011 16:06:08 GMT -6
Emotion is part of the equation. I get sick of people saying not to be emotional. We are all emotional. Alberts is an egotistical UNL FB butt kisser. He could have informed the Wrestling and FB HC privately and had them sign a non-disclosure agreement - this would have made them aware of the situation and not blind-sided them. Classless! I could strip out emotion like you suggest and even go so far as to make a business case for USD dropping FB - but there is an emotional element that would inspire me to fight to keep the program. Hopefully other Yote supporters will see what happens to programs that are struggling financially and join Howling Pack. College Athletics is about emotion. Get some! The Yote "fan base" has stripped out emotion too long. I have a feeling the red you wear to USD games has Nebraska all over it. Other way around Junior. Emotion is fine at games but not in the board rooms were the big boy decisions are made. There is no satisfactory way to tell a nationally ranked program that it is being cut. I would think that it would be better to be told after the win than before. Having to deal with the program being cut as well as the competition could have cost the Mavs. If USD were to cut football they would save a ton of money and kill all the athletic programs at the same time. UNO did what they had to do, cut the money losers. At USD football has the greatest earnings potential of all of the sports. Much different than at UNO. Football at this level is not a money maker. In fact, there aren't very many FBS schools that turn a profit. The sport with the greatest earnings potential is mens basketball.
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UNO
Mar 13, 2011 16:16:52 GMT -6
Post by bigOyote on Mar 13, 2011 16:16:52 GMT -6
The emotion I was discussing was the type of whining I heard about the programs being cut and odd descriptions of Alberts. No I have not been in any board rooms I was in a classroom and grew dam* tired of whining. Educate me do you have a link to Salyer's discussion of the USD meal ticket. The last I knew about came with 19 meals a week, all you could eat. No link, just verbal. Ask the next time you see Sayler or Herbie. If you take out the money games (soon to be game) for FB it is not even close. All cost projections require assumptions - changing the underlying assumptions changes the projection. How many paying fans attended the DD for home games this year? (less than 4000 per game.) Will USD FB average (real paying attendance) 6,000/8,000 /10,000 etc. - over 5 or 6 home games. If the rivalry with SDSU takes hold and USD has a new FB seating setup - could they sell 14,000 seats at an elevated ticket price? Even with optimistic growth in those areas from current levels, USD has to address a shortfall in what they spend on FB vs other MVFC teams. FB HC and Staff - salary and benefits costs will have to go up and will mute initial revenue growth from increased attendance numbers. FB success at the FCS level actually costs each school money. BB has the luxury of more home games and potential tournament money. I have said it before I will say it again I'm Wrong. I developed a mental block about basketball and have not watched much since they added the shot clock. Ruined the game in my opinion. So if football is too expensive and hockey makes money then I guess the thing I still have not gotten an answer to is, Why wrestling? - Hockey I assume costs more than b-ball less than football. I guess I have stuff to learn will there be a test?
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UNO
Mar 13, 2011 17:48:55 GMT -6
Post by omahayote on Mar 13, 2011 17:48:55 GMT -6
No link, just verbal. Ask the next time you see Sayler or Herbie. If you take out the money games (soon to be game) for FB it is not even close. All cost projections require assumptions - changing the underlying assumptions changes the projection. How many paying fans attended the DD for home games this year? (less than 4000 per game.) Will USD FB average (real paying attendance) 6,000/8,000 /10,000 etc. - over 5 or 6 home games. If the rivalry with SDSU takes hold and USD has a new FB seating setup - could they sell 14,000 seats at an elevated ticket price? Even with optimistic growth in those areas from current levels, USD has to address a shortfall in what they spend on FB vs other MVFC teams. FB HC and Staff - salary and benefits costs will have to go up and will mute initial revenue growth from increased attendance numbers. FB success at the FCS level actually costs each school money. BB has the luxury of more home games and potential tournament money. I have said it before I will say it again I'm Wrong. I developed a mental block about basketball and have not watched much since they added the shot clock. Ruined the game in my opinion. So if football is too expensive and hockey makes money then I guess the thing I still have not gotten an answer to is, Why wrestling? - Hockey I assume costs more than b-ball less than football. I guess I have stuff to learn will there be a test? There are some big differences for hockey. 1. Fewer scholarships and fewer coaches. 2. A D1 Hockey program is competing for the number one spot in all of college hockey, not just the one spot in tier 2 teams (like FCS). That fact alone makes it more interesting for fans. Hockey is a long ways off for USD, but it could help the U brand itself even more. Big 10 Hockey is on the way - it is just a matter of time. When that shift happens - the best college hockey conference will get broken up and it would be an opportunity for MN Mankato, St Cloud St, Duluth, Bemidji, UND, UNO, Denver, (a new NDSU hockey team?), USD and/or SDSU? UND's two main budget advantages over USD are: 1. GF population and business community vs Vermillion population and business community (This will not change anytime in my lifetime most likely) 2. Hockey popularity creates leverage for the University to collect donations. There is motivation to give so that you are assured of getting a seat (or a good seat) at the Ralph to see a game. USD and/or SDSU hockey played in Sioux Falls could be a big growth and branding. UNO hockey is a hot ticket when they are winning. They have one of the best coaches in college hockey right now - so most believe their program is on the rise. As soon as UNO can find a way to get out of the Qwest Center and into a University owned arena - profits should look much better. Perhaps someday USD and SDSU could build a a shared arena at or around the new University center in SF. All pipe-dreams most likely.
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fssd
Freshman Member
Posts: 57
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UNO
Mar 13, 2011 18:47:00 GMT -6
Post by fssd on Mar 13, 2011 18:47:00 GMT -6
I just wanted to stop by and congratulate UNO and the Summit League. I think that they will have a nice travel partner in USD and I hope that they can build on the old NCC rivalries. I do hate to see UNO drop football and wrestling. It will be interesting to see how UNO navigates the transition. I do see a couple of challenges: 1) Loss of alumni support – When I think of UNO – I think of hockey/football/wrestling. They could have a very successful basketball program. But, I just don't remember them being a basketball school. 2) How are you going to win fans for basketball with Creighton in Omaha and UNL starting Big Ten basketball next year. Plus Lincoln is building a new arena which will be the home of Husker basketball and UNL is building a new practice facility for basketball. So, UNL is going after the basketball market as part of going into the BIG10. huskerextra.com/sports/mens-basketball/article_bb36ef98-eac9-5eef-9223-456e4049aedf.html 3) The other big impact to UNO is going to be on the cash cow of the UNO - Hockey. The BIG10 is starting hockey in three or four years when PSU’s program is up and running. How this will impact the WCHA is unknown at this time. But, it will be a very large change. I don’t worry about CC, DU and UNDs of the WCHA because the programs have built those rivalries for years But, will the new kids on the block (UNO fans) view the schedule as favorable without Minnesota or Wisconsin on the schedule. 4) I kind of view UNO as similar to Denver University in some ways: a. It is a D1 school in a large metro area that depends on hockey for the cash flow. b. Both will move from city facilities to campus arenas. c. DU is trying to build the basketball program right now. d. But because of all the money going to basketball from hockey. You hear about the hockey coach as a potential candidate in openings around the country. His name was mentioned with Michigan St and you hear his name with Penn St too. So, building basketball from hockey is a risk. Here is an interesting article that talks about costs between hockey and basketball. www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=3371996i. Championship Hockey Program 1. Coach and staff cost - $400,000 2. Revenue generated $2.27 million ii. Building a winning low-major Div 1 basketball program 1. Coach and staff cost - $675,000 2. Revenue generated $157,000 5) Can the hockey program handle the transition? It will go from the CCHA to WHCA to a New WCHA in about 6 years. 6) Can the hockey program handle the coaching transition? No doubt Blais was a major get for UNO. But he only has a couple of years left in him and his contract ends 2014/2015. Will it be stable enough to make the jump while moving to a new WCHA with Basketball still in transition on its back? 7) Did I mention BIG10 Hockey, when UNL looks that the books of the other BIG10 Hockey schools - will UNL make a run at hockey? Or BIG10 network might require it for programming content in the future. Sorry for the long post and I hope that UNO/USD/Summit League are very successful. Crazy game last night UND vs USD - what a way to end the relationship between the two schools. Great Job.
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UNO
Mar 13, 2011 21:49:00 GMT -6
Post by Yote 53 on Mar 13, 2011 21:49:00 GMT -6
I'll chip in a few thoughts. First, USD football may not be a cash cow, it may even be in the red, but if the U cut it they can kiss donations to the athletic dept and the Alumn i Association in general good bye. I would walk away from this University and want nothing to do with it ever again and I know alot of people that feel the same way. So ask yourself again, and take into consideration donations and support to the U and its overall profile, which program is the meal ticket?
Second, Big Ten hockey is not a sure thing. College hockey people in general see it as a bad thing for the sport and it would hurt a lot of programs. Wisky and Minny have long standing rivalries with UND that would be hurt, not to mention UM won't want to do anything to hurt Minnesota hockey schools. But, if it does come to pass then there will be some major programs, like Notre Dame and Miami (OH) out of CCHA, and UND, DU, CC, etc out of the WCHA that will most likely align to form a very strong hockey conference. I see UNO as being a part of that conference.
Hockey has grown considerable in the Dakotas and it could be a major revenue source for USD. Sioux City and Sioux Falls are two markets that have supported hockey for years (in Sioux City's case a very long time). Vermillion is situated right in the middle of two hockey educated metropolitan areas. It should be something that is on the athletic dept's radar. Look at the money DU generated (with an average attendance of 6,000), if USD could generate half that it would be a winning proposition.
fssd, it's nice to have someone on here that understands college hockey. You had a very insightful post.
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UNO
Mar 13, 2011 22:37:51 GMT -6
Post by Yote 53 on Mar 13, 2011 22:37:51 GMT -6
I'd take option 3, cut the whole athletic dept. Hell, I wouldn't care if they did do option 2 because I wouldn't have anything to do with USD anyways.
Cutting football is just...bad...if I was in charge of SDSU I wouldn't inflict punishment on them by cutting football. That's just mean.
Given all the angles, and stories I read, this probably was the right, and inevitable, course for UNO. I guess their football attendance has really suffered since the D2 days, pulling in like 3,000/game. That's not sustainsable.
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 0:10:39 GMT -6
Post by #1CoyoteFan (Admin) on Mar 14, 2011 0:10:39 GMT -6
Hockey has grown considerable in the Dakotas and it could be a major revenue source for USD. Sioux City and Sioux Falls are two markets that have supported hockey for years (in Sioux City's case a very long time). Vermillion is situated right in the middle of two hockey educated metropolitan areas. It should be something that is on the athletic dept's radar. Look at the money DU generated (with an average attendance of 6,000), if USD could generate half that it would be a winning proposition. fssd, it's nice to have someone on here that understands college hockey. You had a very insightful post. If you didn't notice, Sioux Falls has voted down a decent facility for hockey in the past and there are no plans for a new ice rink. Besides the Stampede, hockey is basically an afterthought in Sioux Falls. The Flyers were one of the worst teams in the state this year without a doubt. The talent is getting better after doing some stories about it this year. Mitchell has two pretty good players who could maybe play? Rushmore/Rapid City has really developed. Pierre is decent along with Brookings. However, Sioux Falls is falling behind these places. It has an awful facility that is putting it way behind. USD has a LONG ways to go before hockey is a viable option to even think of adding. Where are they going to get the money to build the rink and maintain it? Plus, does South Dakota produce enough prospects to make it a D-I hockey program? Considering the strength of UND, Minny's many programs and UNO in the area, it would be hard to build a recruiting base.
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 7:49:29 GMT -6
Post by Yote 53 on Mar 14, 2011 7:49:29 GMT -6
The Sioux Falls team that plays in the South Dakota High School league is their B team. Their top team plays in the much better Midwest High School league where they took 5th place just a few weeks ago in the league tourney. Sioux Falls hockey has not fallen behind, they are so much better than the rest of the state that they took their top team and moved it to a different level. If Sioux Falls top teams stayed in the South Dakota leagues they would have won them again this year.
As for recruiting, USD sits right in the middle of USHL territory. The USHL is the feeder system to most college programs. All the WCHA schools pull their recruits from this league, plus UND pulls many out of Canada. Recruiting would not be an issue, their is enough talent in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, and North Dakota to choose from. If we are using a recruiting base as the standard then we should consider dropping football and basketball. Basketball pulls most of its recruits out of Minnesota and Wisconsin and football has been pulling more quality recruits from Colorado, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, and Florida than South Dakota.
I'll agree with one thing, the biggest, and ultimately the determining factor in USD hockey is there is no facility and I don't see one being built anytime soon.
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usdlaw
Senior Member
Posts: 930
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 8:14:29 GMT -6
Post by usdlaw on Mar 14, 2011 8:14:29 GMT -6
No comment on the hockey other than I don't see USD adding hockey.
As far as UNO joining Summit I like it. That's good. Travel partner and another step at making the league more stable. As far as football, I think their decision is a win win for USD. No football directly in Omaha will help USD recruiting I would hope. Any kids Ed is already calling?
As far as wrestling goes, that would be a tough pill to swallow for UNO kids. They have had a lot of success on the mat. But USD dropped baseball, these things happen. For better or worse.
Regarding football costs and the discussion on whether USD would ever drop football, I don't see that happening. I do think basketball is the money sport, and will continue to be that way. Football has really only enjoyed the attendance boost over basketball, if any, in recent years. Back in the NCC days basketball must have had better revenues, but I don't care to go look. I think that will be the case in the Summit. 14-15 home games vs 4-5 home games. Granted in the past few years many BB games have had little attendance, but I think that will improve with a Summit schedule.
With that said, I thought I heard once that approximately 25% of USDs total athletic budget (scholarships, salaries, equipment, utility bills, the whole works) is football. I thought I heard that men's and women's basketball together totaled something like 11% to 13%. Clearly football comes with a high price tag at any school.
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 8:25:14 GMT -6
Post by Yote 53 on Mar 14, 2011 8:25:14 GMT -6
I agree football has a higher price tag but it is also the heart and soul sport. Take it away and there would be unmeasurable effects to fundraising across the university. I know people who are stilled very mad about USD dropping baseball. Baseball got little fan support at USD. Drop football and there would be people with torches and pitch forks marching down Dakota Street looking to inflict some damage.
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usdlaw
Senior Member
Posts: 930
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 9:22:31 GMT -6
Post by usdlaw on Mar 14, 2011 9:22:31 GMT -6
Sorry for thread drift but you brought up baseball.
I walked on and played baseball (well played is a strong word, the only regular season game I played was at Wayne St, but I went 1-1 haha) my sophomore year at USD. I think the only reason I played that one game is because my roommate, who now owns Carey's by the way, and I spent several hours draining water off Prentis Park after a bad rain storm. The team was at NDSU that weekend and had a double header at home a couple days later. I think against Augie. Prentis was not a good field, and water did not drain well. I had experience taking care of a baseball field back home so I diverted the water off the infield and drained it. It was still rock hard for the next home game, even after a lot of raking. But we held the game. I didn't say anything to Coach Stack. I later found out my other roommate and teammate told him. I was rewarded by getting to travel to the next road game, which was Wayne St.
I decided not to go out my junior year because of the hire of Coach Atchison. His antics at his former schools led me to believe he was not the type of coach I wanted to play for, and many agreed with me and did the same thing. My brother played at Mt Marty and Atchison coached a team they played against, which game had a couple bench clearing brawls. I got to watch him first hand. Was not impressed. IMO a bad hire by USD.
USD dropping baseball was inevitable. By the time I was in law school the baseball team caused more fights than football players, had a terrible GPA, and was not getting the positive press USD wanted. But they did win those last few years.
I think the public reason baseball was dropped was title IX, but I think the real reason was cost and academically ineligible players.
I have at least one former teammate who refuses to join the HP just because USD dropped baseball. I've been working on him for three years, and will continue to do so.
I hate to say it, but USD dropping baseball was a smart decision. And I'm a baseball guy first.
I think football is safe, no worries my friend.
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 11:48:38 GMT -6
Post by #1CoyoteFan (Admin) on Mar 14, 2011 11:48:38 GMT -6
Dropping baseball was a very smart decision, and the reasons baseball is dropped is one of the reasons I don't see hockey added at USD. The club team has seen way too much bad press than good press, which is one of the reasons it's been so hard to get any momentum on a hockey rink. I feel bad for Hegstrom because he is surrounded by goons more often than not.
I bet if it's open recruiting season, Ed is on the phone with some players. No doubt.
In terms of the Sioux Falls hockey team...why is there NO press about this team? Andrew Cutler is always tweeting about the team out in Rapid City that moved up, but we here NOTHING about the hockey team in Sioux Falls then?
Also, if hockey can be recruited then okay, but I remind you of USF wrestling. The program is done after five years and they created it because of the talent in S.D. and Iowa, but the program had a hard time finding viable recruits. If USD is going to bring up hockey, I don't want to wait a decade for it to finally have a .500 record honestly.
UNO, UND and the Minny schools all have viable cities that support hockey...Vermillion can't even get a radio station in Sioux City or fans from Sioux Falls to come on a regular basis for football....Vermillion on its own cannot support hockey and would need a lot of outside help.
I really like hockey and I think the high school system is getting better. I am a big Wild fan and I watch hockey. I would love to see it at USD as a major sport, but the reality is there is about a 10 percent chance of that happening right now.
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 12:12:13 GMT -6
Post by Yote 53 on Mar 14, 2011 12:12:13 GMT -6
There is 0% chance without plans and funding for a facility. I would not look at USD Club hockey as a barometer for whether or not Varsity hockey would be successful. There is no support from the athletic dept, no recruiting, etc. To at least try to keep this post somewhat in the topic of the thread, UNO had no club team at all when they started varsity hockey. I do think USD hockey would get the support of Sioux City and Sioux Falls. I know people in Sioux City now who travel to Omaha to watch UNO hockey. Hockey people are a passionate bunch, they would come.
Have no idea why there is no press about the SF High School team. I only know what's going on because I rotate in those circles. It was a big step for them to move to the Midwest League and they are holding their own. Maybe it is because the SD State Tourney was on MidcoSports this weekend and is more visible. BTW, state champ Oahe (Pierre) would have a very tough going in the Midwest League, I doubt they'd make the playoffs. That said, South Dakota hockey is making great strides.
I'd like to see USD baseball come back. I can understand why it won't, for now. Maybe someday.
There are quite a few comments at the World Herald site about how the Summit is a fake D1 conference with fake D1 schools (the Dakota schools were singled out). I think USD, and the Summit as a whole should make it a goal to elevate the play of basketball to the point of unseating the Valley as the better basketball conference. No reason why given the years and commitment this can't be done.
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jackjd
Senior Member
Posts: 653
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 18:02:44 GMT -6
Post by jackjd on Mar 14, 2011 18:02:44 GMT -6
There are quite a few comments at the World Herald site about how the Summit is a fake D1 conference with fake D1 schools (the Dakota schools were singled out). I think USD, and the Summit as a whole should make it a goal to elevate the play of basketball to the point of unseating the Valley as the better basketball conference. No reason why given the years and commitment this can't be done. You have exactly the right attitude. That is the goal and it's a goal that our institutions and conference can meet. And when that goal is attained, we move on to a newer and loftier goal. Those newspaper comments you refer to, 53, are precisely why USD and SDSU should be in D-1 and probably should have moved up years ago. We're bigger than many schools that have been D-1 for years; and, I simply will not accept anyone suggesting my degrees from either USD or SDSU are inferior to similar degrees at schools that perhaps have had a reputation for a longer period of time. When the XDSUs joined the Summit League, the level of play improved. That will happen with USD too. Some of your sports will instantly compete for titles (examples: your track and field teams). Other teams will come along quickly. GO OAKLAND! BEAT TEXAS!
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fssd
Freshman Member
Posts: 57
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UNO
Mar 14, 2011 22:09:56 GMT -6
Post by fssd on Mar 14, 2011 22:09:56 GMT -6
Second, Big Ten hockey is not a sure thing. College hockey people in general see it as a bad thing for the sport and it would hurt a lot of programs. Wisky and Minny have long standing rivalries with UND that would be hurt, not to mention UM won't want to do anything to hurt Minnesota hockey schools. But, if it does come to pass then there will be some major programs, like Notre Dame and Miami (OH) out of CCHA, and UND, DU, CC, etc out of the WCHA that will most likely align to form a very strong hockey conference. I see UNO as being a part of that conference. I believe earlier this year the WCHA president said the Big10 hockey is a reality. The final form and impacts across all conferences has yet to be determined. I only raised this point because of the potential impact to UNO and you have basics cover in your comment and I will stop at this point.. Hockey has grown considerable in the Dakotas and it could be a major revenue source for USD. Sioux City and Sioux Falls are two markets that have supported hockey for years (in Sioux City's case a very long time). Vermillion is situated right in the middle of two hockey educated metropolitan areas. It should be something that is on the athletic dept's radar. Look at the money DU generated (with an average attendance of 6,000), if USD could generate half that it would be a winning proposition. I agree lots of talent and coaches in the region (think USHL @ SF (now) and Blais @ Fargo two years ago). I believe I saw a kid from Brookings playing in the WCHA this year. I would love to see hockey at USD, but not sure if it is really in the cards. fssd, it's nice to have someone on here that understands college hockey. You had a very insightful post. Actually, I am more of a football/basketball guy but I picked up some hockey at UND. I am excited for the Summit League and picking up UNO. I think given an extended timeline UNO will be successful. But, they are going up against UNL and Creighton in the Omaha market and that market place is going to be hit hard for corporate support with the move to the Big10. The Summit League has grown/improved a lot over the past several years but it really is at a cross roads. In terms of membership and definition. Membership: The Summit League really needs a run by one of the core I-29 schools to keep everyone together. If KC or one of Dakota schools makes a run in the near future it will help stabilize the conference around its new core. But, if the run comes from Oakland or ORU other conference may come knocking. Definition: By definition, I mean what sports do they want to sponsor. Are they going to be a Title IX conference by that I mean sports both men/women play (basketball, kickball (soccer), swimming, golf, tennis, hockey types of sports…) or are they going to add football. The decision will determine the type of schools that will be attracted to the conference as they continue to build the conference. The next obvious choices for schools in the area would be SCSU and Kato. MN is short on cash and education cuts are coming. I have no idea what the right answer is but it will be interesting. Again, not a Summit League hater just an interested observer. I was kind of surprised by the Summit League’s comments toward UND during the tournament.
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