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Post by easmus on Oct 30, 2018 10:02:57 GMT -6
I agree 53. If the MVFC even remotely considers Augie then I have zero faith in their leadership. That being said, there’s going to need to be a lot of discussion on an all sports conference. I was a proponent of joining the Big Sky for that reason. I’m not mad we went the way we did, I just felt it was crucial to have all our sports in one conference. Point of reference. Patty Viverito is commissioner of MVFC and Pioneer League with same addresses.
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Post by aldewitt on Oct 30, 2018 21:08:55 GMT -6
I agree 53. If the MVFC even remotely considers Augie then I have zero faith in their leadership. That being said, there’s going to need to be a lot of discussion on an all sports conference. I was a proponent of joining the Big Sky for that reason. I’m not mad we went the way we did, I just felt it was crucial to have all our sports in one conference. Point of reference. Patty Viverito is commissioner of MVFC and Pioneer League with same addresses. Good point about Patty.
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 3, 2018 3:01:18 GMT -6
Wisconsin Greenbay is rumored to be considering non scholarship football. Maybe that could involve Augie and/or The Summit in some way:
Whatever happens Augies moves up may be bound by occams razor which postulates the simpilist solution may be the best. It may not be too disruprupive or as transformative as some like SiouxFolly claim. In fact non of what happens surrounding the Augie move has Unds best interests in mind or is occurring to facilitate Unds move to FBS. The division probably won’t reorganize but the Pioneer may change.
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 3, 2018 3:26:51 GMT -6
1. If the Summit gets in a bind the NCAA is likely to grant extensions for the auto bid based on the proven application of the extraordinary needs principle. I believe The Summit has already envoked this in the past with other sports and the auto bids.
2. To some extent this stratification exists in the Summit/MVFC. Athletic programs grow. The bigger programs will begin to look less like their peers. This happened in the NCC. The larger programs will, given the opportunity, grow and join a new group. Some of the smaller programs may in time grow to join them.
3. If this gap gets to the point in those conferences something may be forced to happen. There is a way to go for that. The action in college athletes realignment is involving the Augies and smaller D1 conferences because a lot of D2s have grown to the point they can seriously consider the move.
The WAC and Summit are in good positions to be benefactors of the changing environment.
the idea we are just rebuilding the D2 environment in D1 is accurate and probably can’t be any other way. Looking at Boise State I Begain to realize there is no welcoming mat in any of the established conferences in D1. Being good means nothing. Rutgers is in the big 10. NDSU saw that and built the GWFC. We have to grow from our roots not theirs.
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 8, 2018 8:39:38 GMT -6
It might be wrong to assume Augie can afford a D1 move: Comparing 2 old NCC schools we see football alone may cost Augi 5.301 M. School | Budget Ranking | Budget | Football | Hockey | Indicated cost of FB To UND | UND | 112 | 28.201 M | Y | Y |
| UNO | 129 | 22.900 M | N | Y | 5.301 M |
Does Augie have the 5.301 million for football? How much total might Augie need to make the move in addition to what they are now spending? To match the budget of several area MVFC/Summit schools Augie needs an average of 12.298 M School | Budget | Augie needs | Augustana | 10.000 M | | SDSU | 22.070 M | 12.070 M | USD | 19.250 M | 9.250 M | NDSU | 27.700 M | 17.700 M | MSU | 26.374 M | 16.374 M | IND | 16.098 | 6.098 M |
Do they have this kind of money?
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Post by kiyoat on Nov 8, 2018 9:13:49 GMT -6
Interesting. I think this is a little simplistic comparison, since parsing out individual sports from overall athletic budgets is a little more complex than that. There are likely shared costs and shared expenses between sports.
With that having been said, I'd be curious to see how Augie's football budget compares to the Northern Sun and the Pioneer League schools. My guess is that they are above average in the NSIC and below average for the Pioneer.
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Post by gopheryote on Nov 8, 2018 11:43:24 GMT -6
Question: what % of the FB budget is scholarships?
The reason I ask: Auggie is a private school, and my understanding is they can account for scholarships using different math. Specifically, they don't really have to care if they are taking money out of their left pocket (athletic scholarship) and putting it in their right pocket (general fund/specific federal school of XYZ funding/etc.). Public schools legit need to right a check at times to someone/something if moving from one pocket to another is short, but private schools don't need to care. Thus the cost for FB for a private is actual out-of-pocket vs. full-cost-of-attendance (which obviously includes full tuition rates). Do I have that wrong?
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 8, 2018 19:31:19 GMT -6
You are correct. It is a simplistic analysis, especially if the schools weren’t comparable in their support for each sport. I don’t think anybody thinks UND spends as much on football as NDSU. If they do hockey isn’t very expensive School | Budget Ranking | Budget | Football | Hockey | Indicated cost of Hockey To UND | UND | 112 | 28.201 M | Y | Y | 0.931 M | NDSU | 115 | 27.270 M | Y | N |
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UND probably spends about the same on hockey and basketball as UNO but Im not sure the other sports are the same. It helps estimate what Augies needs might be though. I’m thinking more like an Indiana State total budget of 16 M if they have football. heres a better estimate of what hockey might cost at UND School | Budget Ranking | Budget | Football | Hockey | Indicated Cost of Hockey to UND | UND | 112 | 28.201 M | Y | Y | 8.951 M | USD | 143 | 19.250 M | Y | N |
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I couldn’t find a breakdown by sport but the scholarship costs are probably available. With that a person could figure the percentage by abstracting football cost out as I did above.
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Post by kiyoat on Nov 8, 2018 20:42:08 GMT -6
The South Dakota Board of Regents has itemized budgets for each public school on their website. Maybe North Dakota has something similar?
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Post by Yote 53 on Nov 8, 2018 20:46:45 GMT -6
The thing you consistently miss when you talk about UND and their hockey budget is that while they spend a lot of money on their hockey budget they also make a crap ton of money off of hockey. It's the sport that us the economic engine of that athletic department not only from a revenue standpoint but also from a donation standpoint.
It's best to just leave UND out of these comparisons because their makeup is different than any other school we are discussing. I actually don't think there are too many comparisons out there for Augie because when we talk about Pioneer schools like Drake they often come with higher profile basketball operations.
I simply tire of this Augie to D1 talk. I just don't see how it is economically feasible without taking a huge risk that, frankly, could put the entire school in financial jeapordy. At best they will be a drag on the Summit, at worst Centanary 2.0.
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 9, 2018 2:22:15 GMT -6
D2 move ups are a critical issue to the Summit and WAC, two conferences looking for members. UND has the unique business model of D1 hockey and D1 football allowing for this type of abstraction critical for this analysis.
It doesn’t matter if hockey generates a bundle of revenues, it is included in their 28.201 M budget running well in the red like most others. Besides, the REA walks with the lions share of their ticket revenues. Even without the 8 million or so hockey allocation their budget is still formidable in the 19-20M range, right with the other Dakota schools.
If other D2s move up with football they are looking at similar fund raising goals. Where does Dixie State or Greenbay get their 5-6 million? Where did the Dakota Big 3 get theirs? For 6 million/year they are all Indiana State.
I dont know if they have it? I don’t even care. If they move to the Summit/MVFC what we want doesn’t matter.
Athletic budgets seem to grow into the available markets and D2s do move up with or without our approval. What Augie does is of prime importance to the league and Sioux Falls.
Augie has little support on fan boards but I have a feeling if they are able to pony up the Summit is waiting. From what I’ve read on other boards there is no love lost over Dixie State either.
I suspect if the revulsion to these schools is great enough some type some type of major realignment may occur but I doubt it. If the Presidents admit them than that’s that. I see yes votes coming from all the Dahota schools if Augie indicates they are ready.
Actually, the Augies of the world moving up is a good sign that the growth mechanisms driving the 4 Dakota schools are working for other small schools too. If growth is the name of the game Augies moving up is the natural Oder.
When the railroads were growing and wanted something you couldn’t stop progress. That may still be true.
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 9, 2018 2:38:31 GMT -6
The South Dakota Board of Regents has itemized budgets for each public school on their website. Maybe North Dakota has something similar? Im not sure how ND is set up? They must be reporting to somebody. They also have tuition wavers they use granted by the state complicating things. It’s very nebulous there because the funds distribution is so political and needs so disparate. I was also thinking the Pioneer schools budgets might be helpful. I’m checking them out. The scholarship question is interesting. To me if Augie goes its MVFC or they drop football. Without it the MVC might be interested in them? The Summit may not even be in play? That, in my opinion would be worse for SDSU/USD.
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Post by kiyoat on Nov 9, 2018 8:23:55 GMT -6
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 10, 2018 6:50:32 GMT -6
Nice work kiyoat. The South Dakota information is nice! The total expenditutes by both USD and SDSU are not that much greater than Augies 10 million: 4.186 M to match USD and 9.825 M SDSU. As you suspected that is only half of it. USD spends what appears to be and additional 15.400 M on Scholarship Funding, SDSU 17.187 M. Definately out of reach for Augie don't you think? Moorhead State, currently in lower half of the pioneer league, spent 12.147 M. That would be attanable for Augie if there are no additional scholarship costs. Augie is passing out scholarships now though. Even at a D2 rate they still wouldn't need the entire 12 million for scholarships. If they go non-scholarship that football scholarship money may be freed up? I don't really know how non scholarship funds itself but I was under the impression the athletes are receiving some type of support outside the athletic budget. The laws of growth will have Augie moving up if they can afford it but if you start talking scholarship football it looks like they need 10 million or more, 2-5 for the budget. The rest to augment the scholarship fund.
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Post by aldewitt on Nov 16, 2018 21:28:39 GMT -6
Picked up another good link on the P5 splitting and the G5 conferences along with some FCS schools unite and sponsor their own football playoff tournament. www.businessinsider.com/group-of-five-schools-championship-march-madness-2018-11This is the type of reorganization the game needs. The P5 are locking everyone out. It could also also lead to Summit Football with the MVFC taking the schools willing and able into the new division. The other schools would stay behind and form the new FCS Summit league football conference.
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