dave
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Post by dave on Mar 23, 2018 8:31:52 GMT -6
Just say NO to Augustana. The University of South Dakota moving to D1 is an entirely different thing. SDSU, USD, UND, NDSU, we're all state institutions with strong enrollments. Augustana is a small, liberal arts college. It fits the profile of a D3 or NAIA school more than a D2 school, much less a D1 school. If I am the Dakota schools there is no way I extend Augie an invite. Don't even need to worry about political backlash there as it's a private school. This x a 1000 Your athletic department is the front porch of your university, it's the first thing you probably think of when you hear a schools name. You make the move to DI to raise the exposure of your university, to take your school from state and local exposure to a national level. The four state schools have a defined statewide mission, we are the state's law, medicine, ag, engineering, business, and pharmacy schools. You move to DI to be on the same level as the peer institutions as our neighboring states, Augie just doesn't belong in this group. The Summit League is an entry level conference and yes we have some schools with little or no local, student or alumni support, and yes Augie is better than those schools in those areas, but bringing Augie in does nothing to expose your school to a broader area, it makes the conference even more Sioux Falls-centric. The Sioux Falls media was against the XDSUs moving to DI, and they were dead wrong. They are lobbying hard for Augie to the Summit and are dead wrong on this issue. The Sioux Falls media needs to learn that there is a great big world outside the I 29-229-90 corridor. |
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Post by Yote 53 on Mar 23, 2018 8:41:51 GMT -6
Just read this chat, nauseating is all I can say. Augustana does not fit the profile of a D1 school, no way, no how. Comparing them to Creighton and Drake? Yes, he backed off the Creighton comparison but affirmed the Drake comparison. Is he out of his fricking mind? Augustana is not comparable to Drake. Drake's enrollment is 4,991, has a $196 million endowment, offers graduate programs and has a law school, and has been in the MVC since, well, forever since they were in the first iteration of the conference with Nebraska, Missouri, etc before the Big 8/MVC split. Drake has been to a freaking Final Four in its history. Augustana has an enrollment of 2,000, has a $67 million endowment, no law school and a few graduate programs, and an athletic history in Division 2, most recently in the NSIC. Not even close to the same profile as Drake. USD, SDSU, NDSU, and UND need to strive to be in a conference of peer institutions. I think we all agree the Summit has flaws and that we all want to progress towards a higher goal. I don't see how having Augie in the conference advances those goals. Would they be better than some of the current conference members? Debatable. Honestly, they fit the profile of Centenary, who is now D3. He goes on to say how USD and SDSU look down on Augustana and that they shouldn't. Ahh, yeah we should, we're not even close to peer institutions. Augie is more like Morningside. Reality is the NCC went on for far longer than it should have and the state schools should have moved on to D1 back in the 70's when UNI did. We propped up the Augie's and the Morningside's and hung around with them when we shouldn't have been, we should have moved on to other things and now we are playing catch-up as a result. The only reason Sioux Falls media is pumping this Augustana to the Summit story is because they want a D1 school in town. |
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Post by Yotes on Mar 23, 2018 11:25:30 GMT -6
Augie's fall 2017 enrollment was 2,080. I can't find a reliable source on Division 1 enrollment numbers, but that would have to be the smallest or near the smallest. Nothing about Augie says Division 1. I don't envision any of their team sports being competitive at the D1 level. Maybe a few wrestlers, track athletes etc. here and there. Is Stephanie Herseth just trying to make her mark or something? I can't think of any reason Augie would want to move up. They're in a great spot for them in the NSIC. The smallest one that comes to my mind is Davidson, which has an enrollment of 1,950 (and has been to the NCAA tournament 4 of the past 7 seasons). They are of course the exception though. |
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Post by kiyoat on Mar 23, 2018 11:41:55 GMT -6
Augie's fall 2017 enrollment was 2,080. I can't find a reliable source on Division 1 enrollment numbers, but that would have to be the smallest or near the smallest. Nothing about Augie says Division 1. I don't envision any of their team sports being competitive at the D1 level. Maybe a few wrestlers, track athletes etc. here and there. Is Stephanie Herseth just trying to make her mark or something? I can't think of any reason Augie would want to move up. They're in a great spot for them in the NSIC. The smallest one that comes to my mind is Davidson, which has an enrollment of 1,950 (and has been to the NCAA tournament 4 of the past 7 seasons). They are of course the exception though. I found a quiz on this subject. "30 smallest D-1 basketball schools". It gives you 10 minutes, and you have to spell the school correctly. A little out-of-date, though, with Centenary as the lowest. www.sporcle.com/games/YoThisIsBay/smallNCAA |
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Post by elcoyote on Mar 23, 2018 12:04:06 GMT -6
Augie's fall 2017 enrollment was 2,080. I can't find a reliable source on Division 1 enrollment numbers, but that would have to be the smallest or near the smallest. Nothing about Augie says Division 1. I don't envision any of their team sports being competitive at the D1 level. Maybe a few wrestlers, track athletes etc. here and there. Is Stephanie Herseth just trying to make her mark or something? I can't think of any reason Augie would want to move up. They're in a great spot for them in the NSIC. The smallest one that comes to my mind is Davidson, which has an enrollment of 1,950 (and has been to the NCAA tournament 4 of the past 7 seasons). They are of course the exception though. Davidson doesn't have football though, does it? |
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Post by JWKunzman on Mar 23, 2018 12:34:01 GMT -6
The smallest one that comes to my mind is Davidson, which has an enrollment of 1,950 (and has been to the NCAA tournament 4 of the past 7 seasons). They are of course the exception though. Davidson doesn't have football though, does it? Per their athletics site they do. 2-9 in 2017 as members of the Pioneer League. Maybe Augie could be the Davidson of the midwest |
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Post by Yotes on Mar 23, 2018 15:00:29 GMT -6
Davidson doesn't have football though, does it? Per their athletics site they do. 2-9 in 2017 as members of the Pioneer League. Maybe Augie could be the Davidson of the midwest Just going off of enrollment doesn't paint the picture. Davidson may have a similar enrollment but has a $661 million endowment and 20% acceptance rate. Davidson has prestige. Augustana is just a run-of-the-mill small private college. |
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Post by gopheryote on Mar 23, 2018 15:21:32 GMT -6
I will not stick up for the Augie-to-SL crowd. But let's use reasonable facts for why the answer is 'no way' or we can collectively start to sound like the NIMBY crowd who doesn't think SLT tickets should be re-adjusted when new schools arrive. Examples:
- Enrollment? Duke is smaller than USD, so that isn't a real issue.
- Stronger SL? As noted earlier, growing the number important (FW leaving eventually, maybe others) but also hard since no one with a reasonable home will come to SL at this point. Unless....
- Geography? It matters. The NCC footprint made sense, even if not all the institutions were on the same page.
- Money? Let's face it, $$ is about the only thing that really matters with these decisions. Whoever is in the footprint that has the $$ and a pulse has to be our target. Augie may be able to get the $$ lined up because it is in SF. If they can't, they won't, so it is a moot point.
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Post by Yote 53 on Mar 23, 2018 19:33:33 GMT -6
Student enrollment matters when it comes to institutional support and a large network of alumni for donations. Let's face it, many schools require institutional support, including USD, but you need enrollment to support that or the cost per student would be crushing.
Yes, Duke, Notre Dame, Wake Forest and other big time schools have smaller enrollments but they have wealthy alumni, wealthy donors, massive revenue sources, etc. I don't see a school like Augustana with anything like that.
As to the conference, we want to be in a conference with peer institutions, or working towards that ultimate goal. Augie does not fit that profile.
Then there is the matter of South Dakota being a small population state. There are limited resources here, limited corporate dollars. Another school, a small one at that, that would require a large amount of corporate dollars to support a venture like this, it would have a negative effect on both State and the U.
The negatives outweigh the positives for USD and SDSU with this. I don't see why we should be supportive or even encouraging this.
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Post by gopheryote on Mar 23, 2018 20:45:21 GMT -6
Student enrollment matters when it comes to institutional support and a large network of alumni for donations. Let's face it, many schools require institutional support, including USD, but you need enrollment to support that or the cost per student would be crushing. Yes, Duke, Notre Dame, Wake Forest and other big time schools have smaller enrollments but they have wealthy alumni, wealthy donors, massive revenue sources, etc. I don't see a school like Augustana with anything like that. As to the conference, we want to be in a conference with peer institutions, or working towards that ultimate goal. Augie does not fit that profile. Then there is the matter of South Dakota being a small population state. There are limited resources here, limited corporate dollars. Another school, a small one at that, that would require a large amount of corporate dollars to support a venture like this, it would have a negative effect on both State and the U. The negatives outweigh the positives for USD and SDSU with this. I don't see why we should be supportive or even encouraging this. Oof. I guess I'll bite, but - and this is a big 'but' - I personally don't want Augie in the Summit and I think it would be bad for the other SD schools in the Summit for the corporate $$ mentioned above. So here goes the devil's advocate POV: It seems inevitable that FW is as good as gone, and one of UNO/DU isn't far behind, which still leaves WIU as a big question mark. If two of those four bolt, we are looking at a merger of the Summit with the Great West (or something similarly bad). SL needs numbers right now more than it needs peer institutions, if for no other reason than to exist long enough where peer institutions becomes a main goal. A business that is close to going under can't worry about being in a cool 'branded' office space - they need to focus on making the next payroll. The problem - as has been discussed to death - is that no one wants to join the SL unless they are escaping a bad situation (UMKC) or looking for a ticket to move to D1 (Augie, UMD, St. Cloud, Mankato, the D2 Missouri schools). It isn't a destination conference right now, but it desperately needs to add members. So there is my argument for(ish) Augie coming to the SL - the conference needs to make the next payroll. |
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Post by fargobison on Mar 23, 2018 21:31:05 GMT -6
Augie? Who does Douple have in mind after that? MSU-Moorhead?
What a joke...Augie makes UMKC look like Duke.
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Post by elcoyote on Mar 23, 2018 21:49:54 GMT -6
Student enrollment matters when it comes to institutional support and a large network of alumni for donations. Let's face it, many schools require institutional support, including USD, but you need enrollment to support that or the cost per student would be crushing. Yes, Duke, Notre Dame, Wake Forest and other big time schools have smaller enrollments but they have wealthy alumni, wealthy donors, massive revenue sources, etc. I don't see a school like Augustana with anything like that. As to the conference, we want to be in a conference with peer institutions, or working towards that ultimate goal. Augie does not fit that profile. Then there is the matter of South Dakota being a small population state. There are limited resources here, limited corporate dollars. Another school, a small one at that, that would require a large amount of corporate dollars to support a venture like this, it would have a negative effect on both State and the U. The negatives outweigh the positives for USD and SDSU with this. I don't see why we should be supportive or even encouraging this. Oof. I guess I'll bite, but - and this is a big 'but' - I personally don't want Augie in the Summit and I think it would be bad for the other SD schools in the Summit for the corporate $$ mentioned above. So here goes the devil's advocate POV: It seems inevitable that FW is as good as gone, and one of UNO/DU isn't far behind, which still leaves WIU as a big question mark. If two of those four bolt, we are looking at a merger of the Summit with the Great West (or something similarly bad). SL needs numbers right now more than it needs peer institutions, if for no other reason than to exist long enough where peer institutions becomes a main goal. A business that is close to going under can't worry about being in a cool 'branded' office space - they need to focus on making the next payroll. The problem - as has been discussed to death - is that no one wants to join the SL unless they are escaping a bad situation (UMKC) or looking for a ticket to move to D1 (Augie, UMD, St. Cloud, Mankato, the D2 Missouri schools). It isn't a destination conference right now, but it desperately needs to add members. So there is my argument for(ish) Augie coming to the SL - the conference needs to make the next payroll. I agree with you that Ft Wayne will probably leave and do it fairly soon, but why do you think Omaha and/or Denver, especially Omaha, would leave? Main question would be where would they go? I agree with the main priority being in adding numbers at the present time...somewhat of a duct tape solution as unsavory as that may be. |
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Post by Coyote Fan on Mar 23, 2018 22:02:36 GMT -6
This type of discussion is really one that needs to be going year round and might be the most important topic of any regarding USD athletics. There are so many opinions regarding this and it's hard to say one is definitely right or wrong vs others. This is a real big dilemma for sure.
Does the Summit hold out and take like institutions to the Dakota 4?
Obviously long term that would be most everyone's goal. By not adding anyone that "doesn't belong" is nice in theory but the league is in dire need right now to get to at least 10 just for scheduling purposes because most league members home schedules are hurting. Do we sacrifice the now for a future that we never know if the Summit will ever actually realize.
Does the Summit add schools to get the numbers up to keep its future survival?
This is the strategy where adding anything that makes any sense whatsoever is fair game. That would include UMKC, Augie and potential D2 move ups etc. I think those that are steadfast at keeping the basketball tourney in Sioux Falls that would take that over the long term quality of the league would be apt to choose this option. This would be the quickest way to get to a more stable league, but would it be the best for the long term vision.
My perspective has changed over the course of the last small handful of years. 8 years ago USD arguably needed the Summit worse than the Summit needed USD. I think that has changed. USD is now a power member of the league that is very strong in the core sports and is at least making strides in football. If the sports world got turned inside out and upside down I think USD comes out of it in a good position. That is why I am not afraid of the possibility of the Summit totally falling apart or afraid of USD being part of a plan that tries some type of a merge with the MVFC schools or the best of the big Sky. As much as I want the schedule to stabilize ASAP I am a little more willing to hold out and do what is best for USD not what just happens to be the best for the Summit and its survival if that survival is even really worth it. I want this University to be where it belongs and I think that is either with the rest of the MVC or as part of a merger that includes the best of the Big Sky and the Summit. I think that type of a merger would be beneficial to all involved.
What we saw last night at the Michigan State game and what we saw during the 2016 run I value more than I value a conference tourney in Sioux Falls which is nice but not worth sacrificing many other things. We need to focus on having more instances occur that we have seen with the hype surrounding the women's basketball team. We need more reasons for people to want to come and grow the home atmosphere at games in Vermillion and not worry about what happens for one conference tourney one time a year. That is nice but that tourney isn't nearly as beneficial to USD as it should be. In other words we need to grow the overall strength of the home schedule and staying in an inferior league that people say "no one wants to join" just doesn't accomplish that IMO.
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Post by kiyoat on Mar 24, 2018 5:09:19 GMT -6
I'm undecided on whether Augie to the Summit is a good idea. There are lots of good fact-based arguments against it. There are also a lot of wild-speculation-based arguments against it that are simply tribalism and an underlying fear of competition from them.
I tend to dismiss those arguments, just like I do in American politics. Give me facts, not propaganda and bias-confirmation.
I'll add a couple items to Gopheryote's Devil's advocate list:
1. Recruiting Sioux Falls (fans too) without all the blue noise of the SLT.
2. Reduced travel budget for ALL sports. This is not small potatoes. $
3. Augie draws more fans to Vermillion than any other option out there. Again, not small potatoes. $
4. They would grow as a D-1. In size and regional draw for fans and recruits. This would benefit Sioux Falls and the status of the Summit, but adds competition.
5. Baseball and football.
6. Solidify the SLT and diversify the crowd.
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Post by Yote 53 on Mar 24, 2018 7:12:17 GMT -6
Most of those 6 are negatives to USD. I don't fear competition from Augie. What I see them as is the runt piglet on the end teet, but they'll still be sucking up some resources that could be going to U & State.
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